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Anyone have any experience...
Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)02:12 UTC+1 No.407235 Report

Anyone have any experience with FMA (Arnis, Escrima, etc) styled empty hand techniques? How effective is it?

Is it ever used in sports like MMA? (not trying to start an argument whether MMA is realistic or not, just wondering about its applications in self defense vs. sport)
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)02:22 UTC+1 No.407281 Report

>>407235
It has a number of useful elements that are similar, but keep in mind the rules of a sport dictate what works best. That's why certain styles work better in muay thai compared to savate even though they are both kickboxing.

If you want to be good at MMA, you can work related martial arts, but the best way to train for MMA is MMA specific kickboxing and grappling classes. You don't want to train BJJ and muay thai. Sure they help, they have similarities, but ultimately you want to train for your sport.

FMA isn't really a sport, so it is different. You aren't wearing gloves and you don't really want to spend time getting into a grappling match (you'll notice FMA grappling is done in a way that you can pretty much get up and go)
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)02:24 UTC+1 No.407300 Report

>>407281

That makes a lot of sense, thanks for the explanation.

What is your summation of its effectiveness towards learning self defense?
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)02:40 UTC+1 No.407393 Report

>>407300
It seems pretty decent. Although, my exposure to it is mostly through self defense classes that incorporate a number of styles including thai boxing and other stuff. Sort of like the Kali Group's phase classes. It's pretty apparent when things are FMA though. I'm not an expert on it.
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[Irreverent Praxis Remark] 05/13/14(Tue)02:41 UTC+1 No.407402 Report

>>407300
Easily one of the most efficient methods around. You train by beating the hell out of each other with various objects, from cudgels, to sticks, to knives, to your fists. The basic concept is that there isn't really difference in the techniques for any of those. While I think that may be a little BS, they are certainly better at teaching you how to deal with knives than most other styles that claim to have experience in the field since many of their practitioners seem more than willing to practice with shockblades or other non-lethal methods of developing realistic, full-speed weapon fighting skills.
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)03:00 UTC+1 No.407484 Report

Is the stick supposed to be taken as an actual weapon, or just a stand-in for a machete/knife/fist/whatever?

>>407402

Curious to hear your thoughts on why it's a little off. Also, if all weapons are the same, how do they handle longer than normal weapons? Like staffs, etc.
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[Irreverent Praxis Remark] 05/13/14(Tue)03:16 UTC+1 No.407569 Report

>>407484
The particular instances in which FMA developed were based both successive waves of foreign invasions as well as a cultural inclination towards dueling, with knives, big ones.
>Curious to hear your thoughts on why it's a little off.
There are a lot of things that you can't do with a stick that you can with a blade, like draw cuts and conversely sticks are better for say, blocking. It's not that I don't think that they don't make good weapons, it's just that I don't believe that *all* concepts apply equally to *all* weapons.
>Is the stick supposed to be taken as an actual weapon
Yes, very much so. One of the hallmarks of the style is their desire to turn household objects into weapons. Basically, if you can wrap your hand around it and swing it at people, you can try to use it in FMA.
>how do they handle longer than normal weapons?
They weren't really inclined to use them due to the close-quarter nature of most of the islands, that and the previously mentioned blade culture.
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)03:18 UTC+1 No.407579 Report

>>407484
>Is the stick supposed to be taken as an actual weapon, or just a stand-in for a machete/knife/fist/whatever?

Both. They specifically use sticks for fighting, but they also train them in such a way that you should be able to pick up a bladed weapon - or anything else you can grab onto - and be able to use the same basic techniques with it. The do also teach specific ways for efficiently slicing with knives and other blades though.
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)03:23 UTC+1 No.407609 Report

>>407484
The problem with fighting with a long ass staff is that when the distance is closed you have a much less versatile weapon.
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)06:11 UTC+1 No.407923 Report

>>407300
FMA Practitioner.

I learned more effective means of self defense in the first month of doing Inosanto-kali than I did in 4 years of TKD and Freestyle wrestling.

It's quick, It's dirty, it's mean, and if you use it the way it's intended it can be effective.

Look at it this way, Panantuuken is the "Dirty boxing" your gran-dad warned you about because when he was in the phillipines using old pugilistic boxing he got his shit rekt.

It's what got boxer's to guard their faces.
It's used in every modern action film
it killed magellan.

FMA is great fun.
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)06:25 UTC+1 No.407931 Report

>>407235
FMA instructor here. The throws and locks would be very helpful in MMA, I should think. A lot of the strikes involve hitting joints or cramping big muscles, like the bicep, so I don't think they are legal. Is there anything specific you would like to know?
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)06:27 UTC+1 No.407933 Report

>>407923
what's the community like? i know it's a broad question and basically impossible to answer completely accurately but bjj for instance has a reputation for being friendly.
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)06:28 UTC+1 No.407934 Report

>>407931
whats the deal and view of the dog brothers and the dog packs?


they promote the fang choke a lot, some sort of choke hold where you strangle someone with the stick.


How big of a mental jump is it applying, training, sparring, stick techniques to knife and vice versa?
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)06:33 UTC+1 No.407935 Report

>>407934
I respect what the dog brothers are trying to do, and I do believe that full-contact has a place in training. However, a lot of what they do isn't FMA. For example, when they clash, they drop their sticks and do BJJ. An Eskrimador wouldn't do this, he would use the stick to grapple.
>they promote the fang choke
There is a great deal of stick grappling, using the stick for leverage. I've never seen the DB use any advance stick grappling, just simple chokes and sleepers
>How big of a mental jump is it applying, training, sparring, stick techniques to knife and vice versa?
Well, it's apples and oranges. A lot of the newer styles use technique that is stick-only. The older styles still use blunt steels in their training. The only way to get the feel of a blade is to use one
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)06:42 UTC+1 No.407938 Report

>>407933
It depends on what they call what they do.

Kali or arnis, generally friendly people who have fun hitting each other with sticks

escrimadors? More sport mentality. Kind of jock-ish. But still mostly respectable and level headed.

That's my experience at least.
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)06:47 UTC+1 No.407941 Report

>>407933
Not the person you asked, but I can answer this
In my area, it is very friendly and casual. It is mostly traditional training, backyards and such, and casual but respectful. Sometimes people from other arts will come by and ask to train. My Guro will give them a couple lessons to see where they are coming from, and if he feels they are good people he will train them. He has sent many hyper aggressive people away, though. He doesn't feel it is responsible to train roid ragers in weapons. Money is an afterthought, and is very modest. If you have financial hardship, that is OK
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)06:48 UTC+1 No.407943 Report

>>407941
Will?
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)06:49 UTC+1 No.407945 Report

>>407943
Sorry, no. I'm not in US
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)06:54 UTC+1 No.407947 Report

>>407945
Ah, but yeah, that's pretty much my experience as well.
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)07:01 UTC+1 No.407951 Report

>>407947
I think FMA communities are similar most places. I've been to the US and found this so. There are hotheads everywhere, though, and I've seen people challenged.
Another guro that has had a grudge against mine for 30 years recently challenged him. My guro said he only accepts bolo challenges, because he is old and doesn't want to fight a long time. The other person quickly declined :)
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)10:09 UTC+1 No.407988 Report

>>407402
>>407569
>>407923

Correct
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)11:18 UTC+1 No.407996 Report

>>407235
>How effective is it?
It is effective but let's not get carried away. If you compare FMA to "western boxing":
A real good boxer (good technique + experience) can deal with FMA empty hands but will complain later about the "strikes from odd angles".
A not-so-dedicated Boxer might indeed be surprised by your techniques. Though a Western Boxer is always hard because of their stamina and their ability to develop and take powerful punches.

In reality I'd say a boxer would probably win, because he spends all of his time with boxing while we also spent time to learn weapons and stuff. But if a FMA guy would train "empty hands" as much as a boxer does he might win.

Personally I like striking with the bottom of your fist, you can develop much power (even with no gloves on).

>Is it ever used in sports like MMA?
A friend of mine does MMA with FMA. He wins his matches with his grappling abilities though.


>>407484
>Is the stick supposed to be taken as an actual weapon, or just a stand-in for a machete/.../whatever?
It depends on the style. Some styles are blade-focused and use the stick as a substitute. Some styles make a difference between impact weapons and blade weapons (they are indeed different).

>How do they handle longer than normal weapons? Like staffs
They don't spent much time with it, but some styles have them. The same principles work very well with long weapons. But there many different FMA styles, often with contradicting principles. So each style will use the weapons slightly different.

>>407609
>when the distance is closed
When the long staff guy knows what he does it becomes very hard to close that distance. Mind he won't just stay there waiting. Staff has insane power, insane reach and therefore insane speed. I'd say one long staff can equllay fight two guys with sticks or (at least) three guys without weapons.

>>407933
>what's the community like?
Actually very smooth, no bowing and stuff.

>>407935
100% this.
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)11:36 UTC+1 No.407999 Report

>>407996

>In reality I'd say a boxer would probably win, because he spends all of his time with boxing while we also spent time to learn weapons and stuff.

Uhm.. that was a bit ambiguous. I meant:

It is a difficult comparison. Under boxing rules the boxer would probably win. In real life the FMA guy would get the nearest weapon (even his own car keys) and try to perforate the boxers arms and vital points.

FMA is more for the street than for the ring and on the street you generally want to use some kind of weapon (keys, bottles, stones..), at least as a FMA guy.
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)15:09 UTC+1 No.408025 Report

>>407996
>that picture

single most shown self-defence "technique" from many different MAs that always without exception fucking fails.
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?????? ????? 05/13/14(Tue)16:43 UTC+1 No.408034 Report

The hand to hand techniques are not good compared to what's out there, and going out of your way to learn FMA's hand to hand when you could be doing boxing or Muay Thai is not worth it. On the other hand, if you want to learn stick fighting or knife fighting, chances are the best place that is accessible to you is teaching FMA.
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)17:02 UTC+1 No.408040 Report

>>408025

I know.. :)

It's from a tv series called "Human Weapon":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYiHOitZVUI

IMHO the snake disarm in the video is bad..


The first mistake I see: There's no initial strike!
Nobody's gonna drop his weapon like that, you gotta have to create pain first (a strike to the hand or head).

Second mistake: Wrong leverage point.
->Either you do this technique as a disarm - but then your stick should be at the other ones wrist and the "rotation circle" should be as small as it gets (more like a simple wrist turn), to save time and not create an opening for an attack with his left hand. The whole rotation should take no longer than half a second.
->Or you do it as lock - but then your stick should be at the other ones upper arm or ellbow (like a "standing Kimura", executed with your right side) while you grab the upper end of the stick after the rotation and push it towards your enemys center (NOT pulling him in) while doing a step in this direction.
->Third option: As a wristlock. You start it like the disarm but pull the wrist agaisnt your body as strong as you can. But that's rather difficult and somehow "low percentage", because he can just drop his stick and pull out (also a low-percentage move for not getting prego).


Third mistake:
No footwork at all!
This technique doesn't work without footwork, but even if it worked that way you would still be standing right in front of your enemy, waiting for his double-leg takedown - where's my beloved triangle footwork to create an entry?!?!
OK, technique lesson's over for today..


>inb4 "but that's no disarm for blades"
>inb4 "but my FMA style does this differently"
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)17:04 UTC+1 No.408042 Report

>>408034
I don't even know how you can compare though... cuz punches from boxing are mean to be fight enders. they're the goal and objectives of boxing.

while FMA use punches as stunner to gap close into joint break range.

the goal of empty hands is vastly different than boxing.
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)17:17 UTC+1 No.408044 Report

>>408040

OK, my previous post must be qualified a little bit:

After watching the video a few times I finally understood what he's actually trying to do:

He doesn't give a crap about getting the weapon or putting the other dude in a lock. He just wants to get the strike to the head at the end of the technique (it's a "Nr. 2" in my system).

So the important thing happens in his right, the left arm is only for covering him against an ellbow strike..


OK, one more way to do this.
:D
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)17:39 UTC+1 No.408053 Report

>>408042
>while FMA use punches as stunner to gap close into joint break range.
>joint break range

the fucking fuck is that, are you implying you can just snap someones arm simply when being close
i better not see a demonstration/application video as a response to this post.

from my knowledge,i can only remember one instance of a standing joint snap, and that shinya aoki doing a waki gatame
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)17:48 UTC+1 No.408054 Report

>>408044

OK, one more technique from human weapon, the "labai" - this one is fun :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFPOMKt788c


It's not that easy to pull off, the most important thing is to make a huge step while rotating the arms against each other.

But I've done it in sparring and when you can get away with it, it's the ultimate tolling technique:

>anon punches me with the right
>I defend and pull his hand downwards
>anon sees the opening and thinks I made a mistake: "ha, now I got you.. ..what the.. ..Aaah!!"
>anon kisses the floor


>>408042
That's an interesting point of view, I never thought about it that way..
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)17:54 UTC+1 No.408057 Report

>>408053

Not him, but I maybe what he's trying to say is:

If you think about your opponent having a weapon (and that's what FMA guys always assume) you might want to work you way into close range where he can't use his weapon anymore - instead of playing a punching game (because punching against a weapon is a losing game). Possibly while stunning his arm (blows to the biceps and stuff).

Maybe that's how I would describe it..
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)17:56 UTC+1 No.408058 Report

>>408054
>it's the ultimate tolling technique:

hahaha, I meant "trolling technique"..
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)18:38 UTC+1 No.408075 Report

>>408054
>Human weapon

that show is so full of shit
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?????? ????? 05/13/14(Tue)19:21 UTC+1 No.408087 Report

>>408042
What I meant is, basically all the hand to hand techniques in FMA are less useful than something you'll learn in boxing, wrestling, Muay Thai, etc.. Additionally, all those styles I just mentioned are more likely to be near you than FMA. The opposite happens with knife fighting. You're much more likely to have a FMA place that'll teach you good knife fighting near you, than you are to have good knife fighting someone else.
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)20:54 UTC+1 No.408128 Report

>>408075

Yes, in terms of "authenticity" it's kinda weak but I find it entertaining.
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Anonymous 05/13/14(Tue)21:04 UTC+1 No.408131 Report

>>408053
Actually, he's probably talking about small joints, fingers and wrist, or toes and ankle on the ground
>>408087
>what I meant is, basically all the hand to hand techniques in FMA are less useful than something you'll learn in boxing
Well, less useful for MMA, sure. But it's enormously useful for the street. You know all those finger locks that BJJ doesn't let you use and Judo won't teach until you're a black belt? They teach those from day one in eskrima. They know you're not gonna execute a breakhold on a guy twice your size without snapping a finger. That's why its such a good art for women
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