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/m/ - Mecha

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File: 1406073307580.jpg-(67 KB, 704x478)
How does Shinji control the...
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)02:50 UTC+1 No.11116707 Report

How does Shinji control the robot with only two levers?
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)02:52 UTC+1 No.11116714 Report

>>11116707
with his feels
>>
Mattman324 07/23/14(Wed)02:53 UTC+1 No.11116725 Report

>>11116707
He doesn't. He just THINKS he does.

Eva control is entirely mental. The levers give him the illusion that he is doing something to control it. If it would have helped him more he would have imagined it to work mocap and done flips in the plug and shit.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)02:55 UTC+1 No.11116735 Report

>>11116707
>Robot
Don't you mean giant mom cyborg?
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)02:56 UTC+1 No.11116739 Report

>>11116707

Pressure pads and macros.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)02:57 UTC+1 No.11116745 Report

The "levers" give finer control over the hands.
You click the button to pull the trigger on whatever gun you have.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)03:00 UTC+1 No.11116767 Report

>>11116707

Synch Ratio.

Eva are controlled with the brain. The hand controls give him something to focus on, so as to focus his actions into precise moments rather than thinking whether or not he should take an action becoming the Eva doing it for real.

They don't even have foot peddles or anything.

All he has to do is think "walk" and the Eva takes care of the rest, assuming you have a high enough Synch Rate and you have enough practice not to faceplant yourself.
>>
Mattman324 07/23/14(Wed)03:04 UTC+1 No.11116788 Report

>>11116767
Basically this was what I was trying to say.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)03:06 UTC+1 No.11116797 Report

>>11116739
Mind synchronization.
The sticks are just for finer hand movements and presumably buttons to activate non-natural stuff like the shoulder pad weapon containers and the "fuck the power cord, I can do this shit in less than 5 minutes" command.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)03:07 UTC+1 No.11116802 Report

>>11116725
>>11116767
For 15 years I thought he was controlling it with his dick
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)03:10 UTC+1 No.11116813 Report
File: best korea evangelion 2.jpg-(87x125)
>>11116802>For 15...
>>11116802

>For 15 years I thought he was controlling it with his dick

SYMBOLISM!
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)03:11 UTC+1 No.11116818 Report

>>11116802
Only in Rebuild 2.0/2.22 what the fuck ever the second rebuild movie.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)03:12 UTC+1 No.11116825 Report

You know, going back to the general "how can they control the giant robot with just control sticks, buttons and pedals" question that pops up for basically every mecha show sthat doesn't involve mind interface or motion capture, Layzner did a rather simple efort to explain/handwave it when Eiji is teaching the basic SPT controls to David and the Traitor, levers to control the arms/hands, pedals for the legs, buttons and triggers for boosters/weapons/etc, and the AI takes care of the specifics.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)03:37 UTC+1 No.11116973 Report

>>11116707
I always wondered the same thing as a kid when watching Gundam Wing. The show made no references to the Gundams having much AI, yet they seem to control them with only two levers.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)03:42 UTC+1 No.11116994 Report
File: Untitled.jpg-(125x81)
There are controls out there...
There are controls out there that I can't even begin to comprehend.

This and Xabungle's steering wheel spring to mind.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)03:45 UTC+1 No.11117002 Report

>>11116994
That one's easy. The answer is Getter Rays.
>>
Mattman324 07/23/14(Wed)03:49 UTC+1 No.11117016 Report

>>11116994
Xabungle works because it runs on fucking Looney Tunes physics and reality took the train out.

On the subject of Eva, Overmen have similar controls without the mind melding or suchlike (well, Brunhilde and the Overdevil are sentient and King Gainer might be, but aside from those...) and also have two other sticks that somehow work the Overskill in a way that you basically need two pilots to fight and Overskill well (even Yassaba basically stops moving to use his, and he has more experience in an Overman than anyone else in the series). How the fuck does that work, and how does KG's distinguish between the 20 or so ways he can use his Overskill?
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)03:54 UTC+1 No.11117025 Report

>>11116994
At least it's not Big O's.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)03:54 UTC+1 No.11117029 Report

>>11117016
Gainer is the Xbox Live champion. He just inputs complex special moves like in a fighting game. QCF QCF DB DF DB UF HK.
>>
Mattman324 07/23/14(Wed)03:57 UTC+1 No.11117036 Report

>>11117029
Ok, explain the Dominator.

Not Cynthia's. Those black MP ones. Explain them.

>>11117025
You know, I understand Big O's cockpit. I'd never want to pilot it, but I understand it.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)04:00 UTC+1 No.11117052 Report

>>11117036
I suppose. Still, all those buttons. Does anyone have the picture where Kouji gets exhausted after staring at all of the Pilder's controls?
>>
Mattman324 07/23/14(Wed)04:07 UTC+1 No.11117081 Report

>>11117052
He has memories to pilot it and since he only pulls it out as a last resort anyway it stands to reason he's a master of doing things on the fly.

Meanwhile, everything is pretty clear in the show location-wise but Plasma Gimmick and Final Stage, both of which were crazy one shots that Roger didn't know existed (on that note, Big O went two seasons without a single upgrade, new move Roger had to learn, or anything - aside from those two the only thing he does is unveil O Thunder in Season 2, and he always knew that was there)
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)04:21 UTC+1 No.11117123 Report

It's a switch. The machine won't respond to the pilot's mental commands unless the lever is engaged (unless they're at an incredibly high sync rate). The triggers perform a similar function. Wouldn't want the Eva to start firing off rounds prematurely because the pilot got a little too involved in their mental calculations, now would we?
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Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)04:31 UTC+1 No.11117155 Report

>>11117016
>any mecha works because it runs on fucking Looney Tunes physics and reality took the train out.

FTFY
>>
Mattman324 07/23/14(Wed)05:15 UTC+1 No.11117315 Report

>>11117155
But Xabungle especially. I would seriously expect that show to pull air brakes, or running out of gas, or not studying law so gravity means nothing.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)05:58 UTC+1 No.11117450 Report

>>11117155

There have been elaborate control schemes devised from MS cockpits, and that's not talking about the easy answers of MMI and marionetting the pilot.

Most mecha rely on "He hit a button... No, I don't know what button activates a 6 hit combination with an improvised club."
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)08:09 UTC+1 No.11117720 Report

>>11116707
The exact same way kouji pilots mazinger with handlebars.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)08:10 UTC+1 No.11117721 Report

>>11116735
ultramom
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)09:04 UTC+1 No.11117805 Report

>>11117721
>ultramom

That needs an Ultraman opening lyrics parody. I'd do it but I don't know enough about eva.
>>
PHG 07/23/14(Wed)11:45 UTC+1 No.11118135 Report

>>11116825
You probably spoiled some people on Layzner and also didn't watch the third OVA
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)11:48 UTC+1 No.11118141 Report

>>11116725
>He doesn't. He just THINKS he does.
>
>Eva control is entirely mental. The levers give him the illusion that he is doing something to control it. If it would have helped him more he would have imagined it to work mocap and done flips in the plug and shit.
An old article mentioned that they hardwired the Eva trigger fingers to the lever buttons. Makes sense as otherwise it would be unreliable if they depend on synchronisation alone. Imagine a gun trigger that doesn't always work when you want it to.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)21:23 UTC+1 No.11119866 Report

>>11116707

Did you even watch the first two episodes?
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)21:32 UTC+1 No.11119895 Report

>>11116707
Just watch the damn show and you'll find out how.

>>11116973
Have you never played any videogame or what? Mobile suits have pedals to control the movement/acceleration, then you have the 2 joysticks to control the direction and the aiming, and then you have a fuckton of buttons to select things, or control specific stuff or execute movement macros.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)22:51 UTC+1 No.11120148 Report

>>11118141
They should've hardwired the pilots in as well.

Imagine a kid who doesn't always get in the fucking robot when you want him to.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)22:54 UTC+1 No.11120159 Report

>>11118141

Wouldn't synchronization dropping mean that it's not shooting because the pilot doesn't want to shoot essentially? So that the hard-wired trigger is kind of useless. The ability to remotely control the unit like Eva-04 or whichever Shinji's friend was in sounds more useful really.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)22:59 UTC+1 No.11120179 Report

>>11120159
>Wouldn't synchronization dropping mean that it's not shooting because the pilot doesn't want to shoot essentially? So that the hard-wired trigger is kind of useless. The ability to remotely control the unit like Eva-04 or whichever Shinji's friend was in sounds more useful really.
The matter is about reliability. Higher synch means more speed, more power, more precision control. But a gun trigger needs consistency.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)23:16 UTC+1 No.11120219 Report

>>11116994
>This and Xabungle's steering wheel spring to mind.

Overmen are controlled by two valves.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)23:18 UTC+1 No.11120227 Report

>>11119895

Not him but videogames are limited as fuck, you still can't control a beam saber 1:1 decently with a joystick, am I supposed to believe there are button macros for each feint, parry stab and hit they know?
>>
07/23/14(Wed)23:36 UTC+1 No.11120304 Report
File: 20110403225906540.jpg-(125x93)
>>11116725Its stated...
>>11116725
Its stated through action and response that they control plug-depth.

Deeper plug-depth = Higher sync rate: More responsive/intuitive/sense & control of AT-field

Shallower plug-depth = Lower sync-rate: Less clumsy, more secure footing, less pain felt, more stoicism.

Sometimes a greater depth has advantages. Sometimes a lower depth has advantages.

Its also suggested that the Magi-based computers the Eva use are balanced against pilot-control, similar to fly-by-wire. The more depth a pilot has, the more control they have but the greater the control strain -- obviously this is not always a good thing.

The switches trigger physical functions unrelated to the bio-elements of the Eva: Binders, hardpoints, fitted armaments, enabling/disabling systems, controlling the pacing.

I'd imagine manual pacing control to be a big deal and would correspond to heart-rate -- (STOP is essentially switching the Eva 'off'. Basic sensors remain. The AT field is probably offline. Very energy efficient... SLOW is allowing for basic motion. Walking, aiming, a slow punch. Weak AT field. Kind of clumsy... NORMAL allows smooth motion. Regular AT field. Running. Impressive physical strength... RACING would be insane physical strength, maxed out AT field output, very crisp and responsive...).
The clock adjusts depending on the rate of consumption which is decided by these things.

iirc, isn't it suggested in Ikuto Yamashita's designworks that the Eva has a contact-trigger built into the palm so when a pilot 'pulls the switch' the electrical signal fires the gun instead of the Eva's slow large fingers for improved firing latency? -- though it includes a physical secondary as a backup for obvious reasons.

Most of this is speculation.

tl;dr: Disregard that I suck cocks.
>>
07/24/14(Thu)00:05 UTC+1 No.11120387 Report
File: 10277026_615959775164081_8688527061228219202_n.jpg-(83x125)
>>11120227Because if you...
>>11120227
Because if you know which action you wish to do, the computer can see the position of the blade and calculate the appropriate response. This response is based on your current position relative to the blade, your current balance, ideal balance and the most ideal way to block.

The response itself is commanding the joints through estimated inverse kinematics. It doesn't issue a single response position though: Its reading and estimating the five hundred to twenty thousand most likely moves your enemy is going to take based on what they broadcast or telegraph (the same way a boxer can know what move another boxer is going to make based on stance, realtime balance control, statistical likelihoods in experienced, and which muscles move pre-emptively). Then ontop of that based on all PREVIOUS moves taken, appearance and style of motion, the system estimates what *IS* available to the opponent and builds a model of expectation which improves through time.

The difference is that unlike a human being, the computer isn't just doing it once and then issuing a single response and then repeating the step -- and then going through this loop as responses to enemy attacks -- and then getting the loop fast enough to anticipate enemy response (getting inside THEIR prediction loop) which is a loop every second or half second. The computer is doing this tens of thousands and of times a second just like fly-by-wire and changing its response as the situation changes with the final stance in mind, calculating how its actions verses the enemies will react and THEN working out ontop of that what position IT wants to end in that would be advantageous -- which is exactly how fencing -- and almost all combat, actually works.

Interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KxjVlaLBmk
>>
07/24/14(Thu)00:06 UTC+1 No.11120390 Report
File: 1903020_612671565492902_220298769843084923_n.jpg-(83x125)
>>11120387...
>>11120387 [Continued]
Automatic inverse-kinematics are capable of lots of very very complex actions humans are not:

A human's window into the world is 80 miliseconds between your eyes and your brain. Brain action to response is anywhere between 20ms to 200ms if you're thinking with your brain. Brain to hand or action is another 20 miliseconds. Best case scenario, you're 120ms. Worst, you're still 300 ms.

When you become an 'expert' in your field, you skip the thinking process because the logic paths of your response don't need to be queried for: they come automatically. This skips the whole thinking step all together and is largely the entire point of practicing something. If you're REALLY good at something, you're actually reacting before your opponent does in anticipation and then you're ALREADY half-way through the muscle-response needed, cutting down on the timing for that too.
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Anonymous 07/24/14(Thu)00:10 UTC+1 No.11120398 Report

>>11120390
>>11120387
Why is plugsuit cospay always done so horribly wrong?

Fuck these lazy attention-whoring bitches who can't be bothered to do accurate cosplay.
>>
Anonymous 07/24/14(Thu)00:11 UTC+1 No.11120405 Report

>>11120398
Is it the latex? If it is I agree.
>>
Anonymous 07/24/14(Thu)00:13 UTC+1 No.11120413 Report

>>11120405
While the latex is the biggest offender, plenty of other detail is also wrong.
>>
07/24/14(Thu)00:18 UTC+1 No.11120445 Report
File: 10514755_750719201658993_4028688141813463917_n.jpg-(125x83)
>>11120390 [Continued]A...
>>11120390 [Continued]
A computer can do this for what in human terms is all intents, realtime if the computer can perform enough calculations and the software is well optimised enough. This usually relies on a tutor/response model though: The computer cannot be programmed the right response: It has to collect enough information and be taught. Eventually when a basic framework for expectation and understanding is created alongside a reward system and a scope of experimentation, the system can learn to make its own mistakes in simulation. Basically, it needs less experience to come to the same conclusions a person does. The downside is generally human problems aren't constrained or we face chains of problems which an exponentially exploding rate of possible solutions. While we learn slower, our 'buffer' (the line we draw from causation to effect in our hypothetical modelling of expectation of input to output) is far far more complex and better optimised. If the situation is highly specific, computers are generally much better: Because we have a LIFETIME of experience to do our modelling and abstraction with. Eventually the goal is to have a highly abstract model that accurately predicts outcomes but doesn't involve all the necessary steps to come to a conclusion.
>>
Anonymous 07/24/14(Thu)00:22 UTC+1 No.11120458 Report

>>11120398
Because plugsuits were designed to be as difficult as possible to cosplay properly.
>>
07/24/14(Thu)00:24 UTC+1 No.11120467 Report
File: 10291043_611222422304483_4577663851850916937_n.jpg-(83x125)
>>11120398>>11120405>>11120413Because...
>>11120398
>>11120405
>>11120413
Because if a lot of the physical elements were actually done, they'd burst the latex the moment you moved. A real plugsuit is supposedly injection molded in a first layer, the components are placed and then the second layer is done, then the over-layer (the red parts) are done ontop.

The inaccuracies here are the 'bra' part, since real latex has a huge number of physical limitations.

The sad thing is, in terms of the core mechanism, the plugsuit is actually in technicality more accurate than almost every other cosplay done.

How? Normally plugsuits don't work in latex: they follow a Y shaped pattern over the torso instead of a conal model like latex usually does when its cut and bonded. As a result, the stress on those bonds is usually really weak. This is why most of the cosplay you'll see is usually latex with false lines or you'll see latex over cloth, which isn't how a plugsuit to be constructed or built stated in Ituko's designworks: The point of the thing is to...

1) Allow for easy study of a pilot's condition through sensors.
2) Issue response including cardiac and arterial massage
3) Minimise the amount of decontamination that has to be done after exiting the plug itself (LCL is stated as sticky if left in constant contact with nitrogen).

Mind explaining what the inaccuracies are?
>>
07/24/14(Thu)00:31 UTC+1 No.11120508 Report

>>11120458
Basically. Some guys at http://andromeda-latex.com sat down and looked at the original design sheets and experimented with different compounds to try and produce a proper plugsuit that wouldn't fall apart.

See, the Y-shape puts huge stress on the torso. The cop-out is to use fabric, which is inaccurate: they're supposed to be plastic.

The result was like a year of fucking about with different bonding agents and posting their experiments and results up onto the blog. What they did discover was that the Y-shaped pattern minimises defects. To clarify, defects are topological differences between latex and wearer. When you enter extremes of posture, the latex curls and wraps to stretch, twisting, resulting in creasing which reduces the visual effect of having a 'second skin'.

They eventually ended up vacuum moulding many of the components and doing a cast of the cosplayer herself to test the new technique in separate slices of varying thickness -- and the composition of the slices was varied using displacement and gradienting techniques (gradienting is a term in plastics -- basically the same as how a squid's beak doesn't rip it because it gradients gradually from one material to another so the stress of the chemical bonds are highly distributed).

The backpack, 'bra' assembly over the torso and even the lance are actually injection molded, rather than done using the layering technique.

They've also got a breakdown somewhere on their Facebook page of how they did a teardown of a full-contact heat-pump from a minifridge or something and put it into the backpack element. As a result, latex (which doesn't breathe and gets crazy hot) is more workable for shoots (Crystal Graziano's own words).

She was used as the model for the thing when they demonstrated it at Cospkyo this year in August. to clarify, Cospkyo is a Russian cosplay event in Japan that's mostly light-hearted but usually company sponsored.

tl;dr: Rich Russian girls & movie prop companies.
>>
07/24/14(Thu)00:37 UTC+1 No.11120534 Report

Another cosplayer from the event as Paimon from Magi: the Labyrinth of Magic

Fun fact: the nipples are actually made of the same stuff as her ears: They're not real and there's a breakdown of how they were made floating around. The blue was all airbrushed on and then a layer of foundation was applied and the markings produced with ink. The jewellery is mostly produced in a 6 axis CNC mill or moulded in ABS plastic depending on the kind of hurt it is expected to get, then leafed in fake gold.

Using techniques similar to the way Klingon headgear was applied (latex, makeup, airbrushing) a set of seamless underwear were blended into the body, giving her a sexless appearance.

Russia is hardcore, mang. Daddy's girls: Daddy's girls everywhere.
>>
07/24/14(Thu)00:40 UTC+1 No.11120547 Report

And another of her, this time as Elzia from Tekken Revolution. Jannet seems to have a thing for monster-girls.

Info for those with too much free time: http://www.cospkyo.com/

I'm not even that interested in this stuff. Someone I used to date just wouldn't shut up about cosplay and eventually osmosis.
I am not proud of this fact.
>>
07/24/14(Thu)00:48 UTC+1 No.11120576 Report

Well, I've nothing more to offer the thread short of shitposting. I'm out.

Have a srs statue from Krakow.

Not exactly Russia Poland. Eh... Close enough.jpg Why are you still reading these? Oh right. I forgot. You're a gigantic faggot.
>>
Anonymous 07/24/14(Thu)00:49 UTC+1 No.11120582 Report

>>11120387
>>11120304
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6pPwP3s7s4
>>
Anonymous 07/24/14(Thu)01:43 UTC+1 No.11120752 Report

>>11116707

He doesn't, it's for weapons control. The rest he just does with his mind.
>>
Corsair 07/24/14(Thu)02:24 UTC+1 No.11120927 Report

How does Captain Wilder control the Macross Quarter with a steering wheel?
>>
Anonymous 07/24/14(Thu)10:41 UTC+1 No.11122322 Report

Baka-Shinji... omae sae... omae sae inakereba, watashi wa...!!
>>
Anonymous 07/24/14(Thu)11:03 UTC+1 No.11122354 Report

>>11118141
>shooting is important when using an Eva.
I sometimes think they added guns to make the pilot feel safe.
>>
Anonymous 07/24/14(Thu)15:47 UTC+1 No.11122958 Report

>>11116707
Those aren't control levers, those are drama levers.
The more dramatically you are doing something, the more you move them about.
>>
Anonymous 07/24/14(Thu)16:06 UTC+1 No.11123006 Report

>>11120159
>Wouldn't synchronization dropping mean that it's not shooting because the pilot doesn't want to shoot essentially? So that the hard-wired trigger is kind of useless.

I would think that's exactly why it's useful. He could shoot even when he doesn't really want to.
>>
Anonymous 07/24/14(Thu)16:13 UTC+1 No.11123023 Report

>>11120227
>Not him but videogames are limited as fuck, you still can't control a beam saber 1:1 decently with a joystick,

Wiimotes confirmed for best control system
>>
Anonymous 07/24/14(Thu)16:27 UTC+1 No.11123076 Report

>>11120508

Oh Anno, trying to make an unmerchadisable show and failing so horribly.
>>
Anonymous 07/24/14(Thu)16:30 UTC+1 No.11123081 Report

>>11116802
He does though.

The plug chamber is a dildo and a womb.
>>
Anonymous 07/24/14(Thu)17:51 UTC+1 No.11123407 Report

>>11120148
That's what the dummy plugs were for
>>
Anonymous 07/24/14(Thu)20:08 UTC+1 No.11123997 Report

>>11123081
"Mom, unbear me back!"
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