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/tg/ - Traditional Games - Exalted General

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Exalted General
Exalted General Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)02:59 UTC+1 No.32947833 Report

>tfw your waifu takes you to Malfeas
>tfw she's trying to make you become an Akuma

>Exalted, what is that?
Read this article to get a hang of the setting. http://theonyxpath.com/exalted/

>That sounds cool, how can I get into it?
Play this tutorial: http://jyenicolson.net/exalted/. It'll get you familiar with most of the mechanics.

>Gosh that was fun. How do I find a group?
Pray. But seriously, Roll20 and the Game Finder General here on /tg/ are both places where games could be found. Still, they tend to be rare since no one wants to ST.

>Wow, this book is confusing as hell. How the fuck am I supposed to generate a character from this mess?
Anathema. http://anathema.github.io/. This is a godly character generator. It has all the charms in nice little skill-trees, a soothing sight for anyone who's ever played an RPG before. It also does all of the math for you, making it very easy to experiment with builds and create character sheets easily

Resources:
>Corebook with embedded errata http://www.4shared.com/office/xH2zo1Oqce/_exalted_core.html
>Most other books http://www.4shared.com/dir/YI_tDi2g/Exalted_-_Second_Edition.html
>Archive with Errata notes: http://www.4shared.com/rar/Vq9yxN4Yce/erratacomments.html
>Fanmade crossbook indexes: http://www.4shared.com/office/_Ke_MsnJba/_exalted_indices.html
>OP got her hands on this https://mega.co.nz/#!psxSwLqK!ep4BSjtZgQ1cQY7n9tpasgwWD0N-741vlS4cGfZvju0
>Some mechanics reference sheets: social https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53927438/CheatSheetSocial_0-5.pdf combat https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53927438/CheatSheetCombat_0-7.pdf
>Infernal Bandaid: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/exalted/124885-how-to-put-a-band-aid-on-infernals/page2#post128384

Adventures in Malfeas is the second topic of today, /tg/. How have you changed it? Have you been part of the Thing Infernal? Have you accidentally used a heretical charm and gotten everyone killed?
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)03:03 UTC+1 No.32947894 Report

>>32947833
So, Exigents. Any ideas on what kind of system they might do to ensure you can be an exigent of damn near anything?
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)03:04 UTC+1 No.32947913 Report

>>32947833
I've explicitly told my players that Infernals will never appear in my campaign, and that the Reclamation will never happen. I'm not going so far as to say it's Deathlords all the way down, but I'm sure they'll get tired of dealing with corrupt gods and fairies eventually.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)03:05 UTC+1 No.32947927 Report

>>32947894

I heard mention of a Charm Matrix, in essence a grid of what kinds of effects occur at X power level with Y prerequisites, or somesuch.

I'm guessing the Exigents book will look a lot like the Million Styles Manual from WotG/LotW. "Here's how you build a Charm tree."
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)03:06 UTC+1 No.32947943 Report

>>32947913

In your 2e game, or even in your 3e game? I can understand 2e...what with them being broken to fuck (kek the whole game is broken).
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)03:07 UTC+1 No.32947956 Report

>>32947833
>How have you changed it?
I make it cyberpunk/biopunk all the way down. Green neon, semi-organic cyber limbs, helltech. Slums with high tech and low life. I find it's an entirely more interesting place when you realize it's a Shadowrun Barrens on crack and adjust everything accordingly, especially if you use Yozi as Corporations.

>Have you been part of the Thing Infernal?
What?

>Have you accidentally used a heretical charm and gotten everyone killed?
No.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)03:08 UTC+1 No.32947984 Report

>>32947833
my group (of 2 people, including myself) came to dominate large portions of Malfeas. I played a Slayer Genie and my compatriot was a Kimbery Scourge. We played it true to our masters and by the end of the campaign had Infamy 5 and 4. The only time we got attacked from Heretical Charms was when we summoned Jainct to build a road
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)03:08 UTC+1 No.32947985 Report

>>32947943
3e is another matter. If the lore tracks for Malfeas and Infernals don't taste like fucking unrepentent RotSE garbage, it's a possibility.

Demons can still show up. Pokeballs are too deep in the lore to realistically ignore.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)03:12 UTC+1 No.32948039 Report

>>32947833
I had an Infernal campaign, with the band-aid and all. It ended in every single one of them severing themselves from Yozi control, taking hold of Lookshy, and becoming Primordial god-kings.

It was okay.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)03:13 UTC+1 No.32948058 Report

>>32947985
Infernals are best.
RotSE was good.

please an hero.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)03:15 UTC+1 No.32948098 Report

>>32947833

I ran a 1 on 1 game focused on adventures in Malfeas that unfortunately fizzled when the player stopped showing around and lost interest when they did show up, which was weird since they were pretty excited for it. It was sort of slice of life in Malfeas, except the daily wanderings about were gradually building up to her collecting powerful weapons and an army sufficient to siege Creation.

She wanted to offer a domain of Creation as a wedding gift to Alveua.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)03:15 UTC+1 No.32948099 Report

>>32948058
You're not one of my players.
You're not me.
Your petition is denied with prejudice.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)03:17 UTC+1 No.32948136 Report

I want to play an infernal, but all of the people in my group think that they're massively overpowered/broken. Are they right?
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)03:17 UTC+1 No.32948137 Report

>>32948099

>You're not one of my players.
>You're not me.

Hosting a session for your tulpa doesn't count, anon.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)03:19 UTC+1 No.32948146 Report

>>32948136

The items in Infernals are mostly broke to fuck. The charmsets themselves are mostly fine.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)03:19 UTC+1 No.32948150 Report

>>32947833
>Have you been part of the Thing Infernal?
No, the closest I've been is a demonblood. Who was immortal, but eternally 8 years old. (Her patron was a second-circle demon who could affect societies by adjusting how children were conditioned and imprinted how they grew up).

She avoided having anything to do with demons, even though she suffers from the Creature of Darkness mutation.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)03:19 UTC+1 No.32948153 Report

>>32948039
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)03:20 UTC+1 No.32948170 Report

>>32948136
>Are they right?
No. If anything, Infernals are the weakest Solaroids, but they're mostly balanced against the others.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)03:33 UTC+1 No.32948383 Report

>>32948170
they break the fucking rad-o-meter, but not much else. the benefited a lot from being written last.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)03:39 UTC+1 No.32948476 Report

How often do you have your exalts see themselves as superior to normal humans, and therefore inherently deserving of their service, or seeing them as insignificant?

By contrast, how often do you see exalts viewing themselves as having a sort of Confucian relationship with their subordinates, where they have just as many responsibilities as a patron to their followers as their inferiors do to their superior?

And how often do you see exalts going full equality, 'just because I have super powers doesn't mean I'm better than you?'
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)03:42 UTC+1 No.32948526 Report

>>32948383
>they break the fucking rad-o-meter
For sure. But aside from certain Shintais, they aren't actually especially powerful, as far as a solaroid is concerned. If anything, they're severely lacking in certain categories that other exalts have covered - for example, the Infernals' version of the Night Caste has hardly anything to do with actual stealth, larceny, or awareness. It's all initiative, mobility, and murder. Similarly, while they're great at attracting followers, they're pretty shit at Bureaucracy.

Infernals have huge, gaping holes in their charmsets compared to Solars, only made up for by the cool weird-as-fuck shit they get, like Splintered Gale Shintai letting them build dynasties of Infernal half-castes, or everything to do with Verdant Emptiness Endowment.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)03:46 UTC+1 No.32948584 Report

>>32948476
I've seen all three and a shitload of attitudes in between.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)03:48 UTC+1 No.32948611 Report

>>32948476
I've seen my players be full equality (one a bleeding heart doctor and the other an "artist") and I've seen them disregard people like so much refuse.
So.... it depends?
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)03:53 UTC+1 No.32948693 Report

>>32948476
My Solar actually bounces between thinking she's extremely hot shit (in the middle of a heist or another adrenaline rush) and thinking she's kind of... shit. Like, she'll assume mortal guards can kick her ass, when planning a heist or assassination. In a way, this is good - she continually practices techniques, refines her skill - but at the same time, it's totally holding her back from what she's really capable of.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)04:19 UTC+1 No.32949167 Report

>>32948526
I cannot but approve of this arrangement. In particular because the omissions are rather obvious. Certainly makes them distinct and, in some cases, further underlines their stated purpose. Of course, in some other cases, counterproductive to it.
Combine it with the fact that GSP are so few in numbers and anything approaching a complete Circle is so improbable, it quite stresses the Infernals' resourcefulness and a need to rely on their themes. Widely-applicable Excellencies help with this immensely.
As for everything else - there is a reason there is the entire hierarchy of Hell for the Infernal to call upon, uncountable types of 1st Circle Demons to summon and Akuma.

>leave bikelyl
Bah, didn't like it there anyway.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)04:26 UTC+1 No.32949294 Report

Threadly reminder that the leak was an early playtest build and you shouldn't judge the game based off it.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)04:29 UTC+1 No.32949349 Report

>>32949294
I can't wait for Dissidia: The RPG
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)04:59 UTC+1 No.32949944 Report

>>32949349
I as well, minus the sarcasm.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)05:27 UTC+1 No.32950448 Report

So, /tg/, given that the last thread clarified what Supernal Abilities are (you pick an Ability, and get to ignore all Essence minimums for it), what do you think of my Supernal Ability: Craft build?

Charms:
Brass Scales Falling
Red Anvils Ringing
Chains Fall Away
Craftsman Needs No Tools
Peerless Paragon of Craft
Arete-Shifting Prana
Sublime Transference
Supreme Celestial Focus
Supreme Perfection of Craft
Efficient Craftsman Technique
Ages-Echoing Wisdom
Summit-Piercing Touch
Vice-Miracle Technique

You get an infinite-XP loop, the ability to pull a daiklave out of your ass once per season, and the ability to churn out mundane stuff in a couple of minutes. Downside is that you'll need to spend Bonus Points to pick up combat charms and Sorcery.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)05:27 UTC+1 No.32950450 Report

So, how do people think evocations will work? Will they be just like charms themed after your sword, or will they be closer to old artifact power, but just a fuck ton of them?
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)05:30 UTC+1 No.32950509 Report

>>32950448
I think it sounds cool, but no way an infinate exp loop would pass muster on the final book or any decent Storyteller. Other than that, your build, (and craft in general), look FUN. something it has never been in any game I have ever been in.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)05:30 UTC+1 No.32950514 Report

>>32950448
It's a good thing Craft is going to get major revisions before 3e actually gets released
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)05:35 UTC+1 No.32950595 Report

>>32950450

Given what we've seen (an Evocation-tree, specifically), they'll probably be Charms themed after the sword, some of which are self-standing trees and others of which can grow out of your native Charms.

e.g. in the sample Daiklave we saw, one of the branches built off Call the Blade, meaning only Solars could access that branch, whereas others started from foundational Charms within the Daiklave itself
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)06:01 UTC+1 No.32950971 Report

>>32950595
right, but will they be as complicated as charms? I'm just worried that it will take fucking forever to make a whole evocation-ed up artifact.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)06:02 UTC+1 No.32950990 Report

>>32950595
>e.g. in the sample Daiklave we saw, one of the branches built off Call the Blade, meaning only Solars could access that branch

Dragonblooded had a similar charm in 2e, didn't they? I'd expect that they'd probably be able to unlock that branch of the Evocations with their equivalent charm.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)06:06 UTC+1 No.32951043 Report

>>32950990
I would doubt it.

>>32950971
It's not like you need to make it all at once, only as fast as your character learns the Charms in it.

Especially given how light Charms can get ("you get double-9s").
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)06:16 UTC+1 No.32951185 Report

>>32949294
We wouldn't need this reminder if it were in the OP like it should be.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)06:17 UTC+1 No.32951197 Report

>>32951043

It's amazing how good 'double 9s' or 'double 8's' is, though. That's basically like transforming one more result into a sux granter per doubled result, the accumulated increase is just massive even on a ho-hum vanilla 13 dice pool (AKA a base pool plus stunt). Sometimes the results speak for themselves better than any fluff.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)06:35 UTC+1 No.32951493 Report

Martial Arts sidereal.
Which of the MA are fun/good to take?
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)06:36 UTC+1 No.32951513 Report

>>32951493
Also some general charms that would be worth taking a look into, if you folks don't mind
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)07:16 UTC+1 No.32952102 Report

>>32951493
>>32951513
Pick up Perfected Lotus Mastery (Swallowing the Lotus Root) and TMAs since those are generally easy to use with your tiny mote pool. Throne Shadow, your native style (in Errata), is very good especially for teamwork purposes (you also get to wield chairs and ladders like Jackie Chan). VBoS is still a nice CMA to pick, plus you have no training barriers for it. SMAs are "check with your ST," because most are too broken to introduce and you're really left with only the sex-based one. Even if you take it, you won't utilize it until late game seeing as it has an Essence 4 requirement.

I almost always shoot for Heart Brightening Presentation Style, which lets you cross apply any of your Excellencies (including the Fateful Excellency) with Bureaucracy, Performance, Presence, and Socialize. It also lets you channel Compassion in a scene without spending WP (once per scene), which works well with Crane style (Glories: Maidens, has a charm that lets you regain Compassion channels). With a high Compassion Sidereal, you can also take Optimistic Security Practice and run with that, which generally exhausts the WP of anyone attacking you.

Remember to apply Astrology to yourself. Of note, one of them grants you WP given the condition and it's really easy to fuel WP for yourself. For instance, you can draft up a destiny that makes you gain WP whenever you spend it in combat (write it under one of the battles colleges or The Sword), with an occurrence of "whenever triggered." Sure, it invites censure, but this is one of those cases of "every Sidereal does it so your peers are giving you censure out of practice, not because they actually care."
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)07:23 UTC+1 No.32952172 Report

>>32952102
>Sidereal
>Not allowed to take Sidereal Martial Arts

How are you actually going to exist in the world?
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)07:27 UTC+1 No.32952212 Report

>>32952102
TMA is terrestrial martial arts
SMA is sidereal martial arts
CMA is celestial martial arts
Am I correct?

What does VBoS stand for, exactly?
As for the Sidereal martial arts...I'm pretty sure I'll be able to take those, given the ST pretty much said "everything is allowed" since he knows we wont go too batshit with it.

I'm not too sure what the Astrology is referring to, I've not read into that bit just yet. That's next on the list of things to read up.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)07:29 UTC+1 No.32952227 Report

>>32952212
>Astrology
Allows you to screw with the determination of events.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)07:41 UTC+1 No.32952343 Report

>>32952212

VBoS = Violet Bier of Sorrows. It's in the Sidereals book. It's a CMA.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)07:45 UTC+1 No.32952377 Report

>>32952227
>>32952343
Ahhh, thanks mates.

How accurate is this website
http://codreams.wikia.com/wiki/Wood_Dragon_Style
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)07:57 UTC+1 No.32952490 Report

>>32951197
That just makes it worse in my opinion. You end up with a boring but mechanically extremely effective Charm that becomes a must-have over more flavorful and interesting Charms.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)08:16 UTC+1 No.32952646 Report

>>32952172
In short? Make your own.

>>32952212
>I'm not too sure what the Astrology is referring to, I've not read into that bit just yet. That's next on the list of things to read up.
Think of it as mechanics that apply to mortals. They're also good for shoring up your weakpoints as a Sidereal, given that your charm dice cap is the lowest in the game (Essence) and Astrology bonuses explicitly don't contribute to your charm dice cap.

The mechanics are fucking unhelpful in its presentation. The short version:

>Roll your Prayer roll
>Roll your Effect roll, gaining (1/4) successes on the Prayer roll as additional dice (round up)
Both have some really shitty ways of boosting the numbers. The prayer roll explicitly can't be enhanced by any charm or magical effect that boosts normal prayer rolls unless if it explicitly affects this specific Astrology prayer roll. Because the devs were a bit pants-on-head retarded, the numbers are so high you're really not going to get far with Astrology. As a general rule of thumb, if you roll something separate you apply only (1/4) of the successes as extra bonus dice (so basically every 8 successes is a success on the actual roll you want). If you get a bonus for doing something ridiculously complex, it grants one die.

Oh, and the difficulty of the Prayer roll is 6, and the Effect roll pretty much has a difficulty of 2+; it has an Essence tax which is equal to the targets' Essences, totaled up. This has the weird, fucked up effect of Sidereals being worse (or at best, the same) at applying Astrology effects to themselves as they gain more Essence.

I recommend you talk to your ST and patch up Astrology.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)08:26 UTC+1 No.32952737 Report

>>32952646
>I recommend you talk to your ST and patch up Astrology.

What sort of patches
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)08:52 UTC+1 No.32952988 Report

>>32952737
I would recommend lowering the difficulties or just playing it by ear. Making up some suggestions here (please chime in if you've got something better):

Choose (Essence) schools at the start of a story - you have access to those Resplendencies always, and can make Resplendent Destinies out of those schools as a standard prayer-length action. Every day you start with College + Essence effect points per college. Ignore the Essence tax on yourself; pay only the highest Essence user as a tax when you apply a destiny on others.

In short, decouple the reliance on prayer rolls so that all Sidereals can use astrology meaningfully. Also boost the numbers and remove most of the stupid prep time.

As a note, Pattern Bite sucks. Unless if you have more than 10 HLs, it has a 1% chance of one-shotting your character with no PDs (perfect defenses) applicable to it explicitly. The other effects are also story killers, like how you lose all WP and can't regenerate WP by any means for a week, or how your Appearance is now 0 for a story, or how you'll lose a beloved arbitrarily (as opposed to through the story, where it actually has meaning)...

So you might want to adjust that too, or make Paradox easier to reduce.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)10:47 UTC+1 No.32953760 Report

>>32952988
I will run this by him and see what he thinks. From what I've read this sounds like it will be less of a pain to use and be a bit more helpful.

And as another question to anyone really: what would it take for a Sidereal to come to a relative position of power in Heaven?
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)10:51 UTC+1 No.32953783 Report

>>32953760
>what would it take for a Sidereal to come to a relative position of power in Heaven?
You're already considered somewhat of an important person by virtue of being in the Sidereal club.

More than that, I'd say performing actions which keep the world and bureaucracy running smoothly. There's a ton of corruption in Yu Shan, so you could get a decent reputation by punching that into never having existed.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)10:53 UTC+1 No.32953792 Report

>>32952490

There's nothing wrong with mechanical effectiveness, though. As a rule, combat trees tend toward the functional, not the 'interesting and flavorful', because the mechanics are solid enough that there is no need for random 'weird' charm effects. If the entire rest of the game is solid like that, mechanics heavy charms will be a blessing, IMO.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)10:58 UTC+1 No.32953825 Report

>>32953783
Alright. For just being a sidereal, what type of status would that hold?
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)10:59 UTC+1 No.32953827 Report

>>32953792
Well, combat trees should be interesting. If your best option is always and ever magic missile, the game's probably going to get boring.

It's like, "I'd love to use lightning, but honestly magic missile is mathematically better in every case, so lightning may as well not exist."
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)11:00 UTC+1 No.32953832 Report

>>32953792
I think his problem isn't just mechanical effectiveness so much as mechanical effectiveness in a humdrum package. A Charm can be both mechanically nifty AND interesting and flavorful.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)11:05 UTC+1 No.32953867 Report

>>32953825
Think of it like, you work for the government. You're not massively powerful at first, but when it comes to government stuff, you're already a known employee.

For celestial bureaucracy-related matters, people without a vested interest or standing powerbase may defer to you. It's basically that you technically outrank people not in the official workings of Yu Shan, but whether each person honestly cares about that is up to them.

You help administer the great pattern of events that pervades the world, so people who care about that will give you leeway.

Additionally to that, if you play nice with the other sidereals, you've basically got secret agent contacts throughout the mortal realm, like the Immaculate Order.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)11:08 UTC+1 No.32953881 Report

>>32953832

This I agree with. I just felt the need to point out that an entire set of trees have wholly mechanical, unexciting effects (seriously, what was the last charm you saw that had nonmechanical applications in a combat tree? Molten Sun Blade in EX3, maybe?), but nobody complains about them because they *work*, and what is unexciting to read makes for a better game to play. And that's important to remember, I feel.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)11:11 UTC+1 No.32953894 Report

>>32953881
I wouldn't say nobody complains about such things. It's a foundation for some valid complaints about D&D and L5R 4e
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)11:21 UTC+1 No.32953953 Report

>>32953881
>Molten Sun Blade
You mean the power that turns your Glorious Solar Saber into a lightsaber and destroys the non-magical weapons of anyone who tries to parry you?
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)11:26 UTC+1 No.32953979 Report

>>32953953
I really wish you could use that effect with any weapon and not just Glorious Solar Saber.

For that matter, I wonder if you can use Immortal Blade Triumphant with a normal weapon. It isn't clear.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)11:46 UTC+1 No.32954105 Report

>>32953979
>I really wish you could use that effect with any weapon and not just Glorious Solar Saber.
You'd probably be able make an Evocation with a similar effect. I'd be surprised if you couldn't, the way Evocations were described.

>For that matter, I wonder if you can use Immortal Blade Triumphant with a normal weapon. It isn't clear.
Considering that it doesn't say you can only use it with your GSS, I'd say you probably can. It's pretty much this, anyway:
http://youtu.be/IellOoWipqc?t=38m37s
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)11:48 UTC+1 No.32954120 Report

>>32954105
Kind of makes Glorious Solar Saber a bit of a speedbump that way though.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)12:02 UTC+1 No.32954231 Report

>>32954120
I've actually never liked GSS for that reason; I always preferred having a real blade.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)12:52 UTC+1 No.32954601 Report

>>32953953
It costs a willpower and only lasts an instant, so Solars can't just use it as a loghtsaber always.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)12:53 UTC+1 No.32954610 Report

I love infernals
The desperate, exhausted, tryhard style of the writing perfectly reflects the themes of the book.
I love that the're warlocks, oath breakers
I love that they do not include the mandatory diversity quota.
I love that the signature chars are a ninja, a crab ninja, an SCA larper, a nun, and a Scottish person.
I love that if you think exalted is the gayest shit ever shitting all over it and screaming is a valid monetized platefuls.
I love that the ebon dragons plan almost worked.
It almost ended the line and ruined creation forever.
And he would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for you meddling kickstarters.
Infernals best. This year, all years.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)12:54 UTC+1 No.32954620 Report

>>32953979
>For that matter, I wonder if you can use Immortal Blade Triumphant with a normal weapon. It isn't clear.
There's nothing unclear about it. It just says "her weapon." That means it can be used with any melee weapon.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)12:55 UTC+1 No.32954626 Report

>>32954610
Well, the yozis are probably the 'good guys' of the story, since the incarnae are dicks and love their corruption lots.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)13:06 UTC+1 No.32954723 Report

>>32954626
>probably
Certainly. The story of Exalted is that of how the Yozis take back their Creation. Everything else in the setting is a story to tell in the meantime, for when the Yozis write the history of their War, none of those stories will be mentioned.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)13:06 UTC+1 No.32954729 Report

>>32954610
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)13:10 UTC+1 No.32954748 Report

>>32954723
Pretty likely. The UCS is already out of it, the workings of yu shan grind slowly to a depressive halt. The yozis eventually take back over and figure that mortals were better at doing shit than those others were, and simply put them in charge.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)13:14 UTC+1 No.32954782 Report

>>32954626
Sympathy for the infernal

As a forever dm I too know the pain of watching the flower of your secret heart slowly dryhumped into a geay waste by an endless stream of "protagonists"
The yozis only sin was being orders of magnitude cooler than anything else in setting. And they will pay dearly for it.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)13:16 UTC+1 No.32954808 Report

>>32954620
It requires GSS, so one would think it's specifically an upgrade for GSS.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)13:17 UTC+1 No.32954811 Report

>>32954782
>Run exalted games
>Secret plan is always to let the yozis win
>Players try desperately to fight the crumbing
>Eventually see the light

>Every game.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)13:19 UTC+1 No.32954827 Report

>>32954808

Sure in the same way one might think Hail-Shattering Practice is specifically an upgrade for Dipping Swallow Defense.

Oh wait no.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)13:26 UTC+1 No.32954883 Report

The titans are not the forces of nature better men than we had to tame at the dawn of time.
They are the forces that baristas and "professional" roleplayers must overcome.
Mal is society/your ad
Cec is separation/ loneliness
SWL is nature and its indifference to you
Adj is the finality of death
TED is you, as you are
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)13:26 UTC+1 No.32954887 Report

>>32954827
Well the only other alternative is to believe that for people who use actual weapons instead of GSS it's locked behind a speedbump that leeches XP, but I'd almost begun to think the developers WEREN'T that stupid.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)13:30 UTC+1 No.32954919 Report

>>32954887

Cry more.

(But no, I dislike GSS at a thematic level to begin with, I'm literally already writing a houserule to make it work for both people who wield normal weapons and for people who want to always be armed.)
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)13:32 UTC+1 No.32954941 Report

>>32954919
Something kind of like what the 3e version of Glorious Solar Plate does to armor you already have?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)13:35 UTC+1 No.32954971 Report

>>32954941

Yeahprettymuch.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)13:38 UTC+1 No.32954989 Report

>>32954971
Rock on.

I'd also go so far as to encourage any playtesters to suggest such a thing for Glorious Solar Saber. Just so GSS has a point for people who wield physical weapons.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)13:54 UTC+1 No.32955140 Report

>>32953953

Yeah, that one. It has a noncombat application, and it's...more or less the only combat power that does, unless HGD counts.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)13:59 UTC+1 No.32955185 Report

>>32954782
>Sympathy for the infernal
Why suffer a petty tyrant when you could have a magnificent tyrant?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)14:05 UTC+1 No.32955228 Report

>>32955185
Okay, here's something I've always wondered. Why the fuck is Malfeas's symbol crossed sabers when his iconic weapon is the spear?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)14:25 UTC+1 No.32955407 Report

>>32955185
You now realize that terrestrial exalted are empowered with aspects of Gaia, a Primordial.

The terrestrial exalted took over from the solar exalted during the usurpation, at the behest of the sidereal exalted.

The sidereals officiate the loom of fate, destiny, and thus Endings. The purview of Ebon Dragon.

The reclamation has already succeeded. All that's left is the final dregs of incarnae to rot out of existence.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)14:34 UTC+1 No.32955465 Report

>>32955228
No bloody idea - poor choice and taste on designer's part is a reasonable assumption. As cool as Infernals are conceptually, some (a lot) of details are quite retarded - not on the level of "what were they thinking?" but "were they thinking at all?" Like someone was brainstorming, writing all the ideas on pieces of paper, but when time came to carefully consider and pick, just chose at random and put it as a final version.

Also, Caste names. Anyone has a set of good thematically consistent names for Infernal Castes?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)14:42 UTC+1 No.32955522 Report

>>32955465

I've seen some for non-Reclamation Yozi, but people seem adamant to let the Reclamation 5 sit, even though they're literally just ganked from oDemon with no rhyme or logic.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)14:48 UTC+1 No.32955556 Report

>>32955522
>non-Reclamation Yozi
>Reclamation 5
What the fuck are you talking about? Their names have nothing to do with the Reclamation.

>literally just ganked from oDemon with no rhyme or logic
That, however, is completely true.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)14:55 UTC+1 No.32955613 Report

>>32955556
>What the fuck are you talking about? Their names have nothing to do with the Reclamation.

No, I mean, I've seen people write up caste names for hypothetical Isidoros-caste Infernals, Kimbery-caste Infernals, etc., but not for the 5 Reclamation Yozi.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)15:06 UTC+1 No.32955720 Report

>>32955613
Do you have any links? I've had an Idea for a plot set post-RotSE where Kimberly receives control of, and redesigns, the Fiend Caste, but I've been blanking on some of the details.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)15:07 UTC+1 No.32955728 Report

>>32955720

http://phantasmgames.org/ex/wiki/index.php?title=Infernal_Traits#Deluge
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)15:09 UTC+1 No.32955735 Report

>>32955728
Thank you
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)15:15 UTC+1 No.32955783 Report

So, then, /tg/, which do you think is better for a Glorious Solar Concubine build: Supernal Performance or Supernal Presence?

Supernal Performance nets you Winding Sinuous Motion and Monk-Seducing Demon Dance, while Presence gets you Threefold Magnetic Ardor, Awakened Carnal Demiurge, and Rose-Lipped Seduction Style.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)15:34 UTC+1 No.32955907 Report

>>32955783

Depends: do you need to get a target who's impossible to get? If so, Presence. If you need to actually make your target happy, satisfied and obssessive, Performance. Its omni-use Charms are just too good, man.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)15:49 UTC+1 No.32956046 Report

>>32955907
Not to mention Performance has actual sex charms.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)15:52 UTC+1 No.32956077 Report

>>32956046
Yeah, but the actual sex charms are both Essence 1, so you can get them at chargen regardless of what you pick as a Supernal Ability.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:11 UTC+1 No.32956225 Report

So, I've been out of the Generals for a bit, where can I get a look at the leak?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:15 UTC+1 No.32956251 Report

>>32950448
Craft charms havent been tested, cool your jets
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:16 UTC+1 No.32956261 Report

>>32951185
Eh, im just here doing my job, if it shows up in the OP ill stop
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:19 UTC+1 No.32956281 Report

>>32951493
If we're talking PC you need to be essence 6+ before you can try any sidereal martial arts.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:20 UTC+1 No.32956297 Report

>>32956281
I think some SMAs start at Ess 4 or 5, but all their capstones are 6+.

Mind you, those SMAs are kind of broken.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:19 UTC+1 No.32956298 Report

>>32956225
Here's a bookmarked PDF of the leaked playtest. You can also check the OP for the raw text, if you prefer.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:24 UTC+1 No.32956342 Report

>>32953832
>>32953881
We're probably missing alot of the fluff in the leak so i wouldnt worry
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:37 UTC+1 No.32956475 Report

So, /eg/, this will be my first real time homebrewing an item.
I wanted to make a custom fighting glove for my Lunar brawler since he will be hanging around Nexus. Now what I wanted to do was give it the Disarm tag, and some good accuracy, I don't care about the damage, this is to be a disarming tool and nothing else.
I was going to modify the Fighting glove, maybe remove the damage and add Disarm and to defense, or accuracy. I'm honestly not sure.
Can you help me anons?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:41 UTC+1 No.32956512 Report

So let me get something straight.
In 2e hardness and soak were kind of redundant, a damage roll had to beat your hardness or else nothing happened, and also had to bear your soak or else they got either no damage or just 1 min damage as a reward for actually hitting.
But in 3e, soak apparently applies to momentum building attacks, and hardness to damage attacks correct?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:42 UTC+1 No.32956529 Report

>>32956512
>But in 3e, soak apparently applies to momentum building attacks, and hardness to damage attacks correct?
Yup.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:42 UTC+1 No.32956531 Report

>>32956512
Correct
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:42 UTC+1 No.32956535 Report

>>32956512

Note that Hardness is still just a damage threshold you must beat, NOT reduction. Otherwise, yes, that is correct.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:45 UTC+1 No.32956568 Report

>>32956535
boooo
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:46 UTC+1 No.32956575 Report

>>32956535
>Note that Hardness is still just a damage threshold you must beat, NOT reduction. Otherwise, yes, that is correct.
Uh, what? It definitely is a reduction of Decisive Strike damage - unless you're talking about its use in 2e.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:48 UTC+1 No.32956601 Report

>>32956575

Nigga you gotta learn to read. Quoth the playtest doc, page 30:

"Hardness: If a decisive attack’s damage
dice pool is equal to or lower than the target’s Hardness, the decisive attack can’t inflict
damage. A decisive attack that strikes but fails to penetrate the target’s Hardness is still
considered a successful attack, and causes Initiative to reset to 3 as normal. Unlike soak,
Hardness does *not* subtract from an attack’s damage."

So...yeah. Hardness is just a threshold you must beat. Nothing more than that.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:49 UTC+1 No.32956613 Report

>>32956575
It works that way in 3E too. Unless your initiative beats armor hardness, you get nothing.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:50 UTC+1 No.32956624 Report

>>32956601
>>32956613
Huh. In that case, I would actively avoid having Hardness. That sounds like a double-edged sword, since it forces your enemy to build up truly devastating, un-survivable attacks against you.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:51 UTC+1 No.32956642 Report

>>32956624

They're gonna do that anyway. You need a minimum of like 20 init to make your attacks for sure devastating before charms IIRC.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:52 UTC+1 No.32956652 Report

>>32956624
That's why you keep an enemy's initiative below the minimum by being really aggressive.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:53 UTC+1 No.32956663 Report

>>32956642
>>32956652
That still sounds like Hardness is 'so worthless it shouldn't even exist as a rule' at best and 'actively detrimental to you' at worst.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:53 UTC+1 No.32956666 Report

>>32956624
In a way it just means hardness is alot more powerful, as a guy could waste all is initiative without doing any damage.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:54 UTC+1 No.32956682 Report

>>32956624
Except that it still takes longer for the enemy to build up that far if you do have it at a high level, thus allowing you to do the same. If you avoid it, they don't have to chance your becoming dangerous or getting in your own shot before they can.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:56 UTC+1 No.32956702 Report

>>32956682
Except Initiative is already give-and-take. If your enemy's building up Initiative, yours is going down, and vice versa. All Hardness does is encourage the enemy to strike you down in a single blow, instead of giving you a chance to survive and recover, since it forces them to get their Initiative higher without actually penalizing the damage they kick out.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:57 UTC+1 No.32956714 Report

>>32956663

Naw. It prevents people from heading for the killshot too quickly and grinding you down with small -1 and -2 defense penalties. It makes sense if you think about it.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)16:57 UTC+1 No.32956717 Report

>>32956702
I dont think enemies will automatically know before hand you have hardness though,
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:00 UTC+1 No.32956748 Report

Also, in 2e once someone rolled damage for an attack, you then subtracted soak. But in 3e it looks like they from their dice pool of str+ability+successes from roll to hit, and you subtract soak from the pool BEFORE rolling, right?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:00 UTC+1 No.32956749 Report

>>32956717
They'll see plain as day that you have artifact armor, unless it's concealable. And even then, it'll just mean exalts will always go for those massive killshots instead of providing an opening for a fun recovery after a survivable decisive attack.

So, again, hardness sounds COMPLETELY FUCKING POINTLESS at BEST.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:00 UTC+1 No.32956751 Report

>>32956297

All SMAs but the new one not in SotM are broken, and even the new one is overpowered.

Prismatic is arguably the most powerful one at lower essence because it has charm-break effect on top of many other broken things.

Quicksilver is also good if you know its synergy
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:01 UTC+1 No.32956758 Report

So, given that it's going to be years or mabe even a decade before your favorite splats come out *cough*Alchemicals*cough* and the devs have pretty much confirmed that there won't be any backwards-compatibility, how do you plan on coping?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:01 UTC+1 No.32956761 Report

>>32956748
>Also, in 2e once someone rolled damage for an attack, you then subtracted soak.
Incorrect. In 2e, soak was subtracted from the damage before you rolled it. It works exactly the same way in the playtest leak.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:02 UTC+1 No.32956774 Report

>>32956758
>how do you plan on coping?
By continuing to play 2e, same reason I still play Shadowrun 4e. Until a line has extensive splat support, there's no point in playing it over previous editions. Sure, if I just want to play Solars, I might play 3e. But until the splats I actually like come out, 3e may as well not even exist to me.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:02 UTC+1 No.32956778 Report

>>32956749
Nah, without it they can make decisive attacks at low initiative just to wound and then win the rest of the fight off the wound penalties. Now they HAVE to go for the big build up strike. Just have good parry/soak and now you can prevent that as well.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:05 UTC+1 No.32956810 Report

>>32955783
Personally, I think that going Supernal Presence is better, because Awakened Carnal Demiurge's Appearance bonus stacks with that of Thousand Courtesan Ways, so you can wind up with a Solar with Appearance 7, Performance/Presence 5, three bonus dice and a -1m cost to social charms from Harmonious Presence Meditation (aka Infinite Social Ability Mastery), reduce the Resolve of anyone you're seducing by one, the ability to freely add a seduction attempt onto any other social roll, and make seductive Persuade action without targeting an Intimacy.

All of that, for 15m committed.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:05 UTC+1 No.32956822 Report

>>32951493

Any SMA

VBoS in both 2 and 2.5

Empowered Justice Retribution (Crane) + Crimson Palm Counterstrike (Throne or VBoS)

The Compassion style in the Imperfect Lotus

Cobra in 2.0

Black Claw and a few others can be fun depending on concept
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:06 UTC+1 No.32956825 Report

>>32956749
Actually, some Resistance Charms allow you to improve Hardness without being completely obvious about it. Armor itself means having to build up to two and a half times your Hardness rating just to have a 50% chance to bypass it. It does "just" add to the time that they have to spend in order to down you, yes. In that time, you should be dealing with them before they can get that far.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:06 UTC+1 No.32956837 Report

>>32956778
Not to mention that you ought to be dragging their initiative down as much as you can.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:08 UTC+1 No.32956861 Report

>>32956825
But you can't. If they're better-matched than you to be getting off decisive attacks in the first place, all they're doing is taking a little longer. If you're on the losing end of initiative, it's not like you're going to get off your own decisive attack while they're building up towards their own. You're just delaying the inevitable by forcing them to make an attack that will kill you in one swing, instead of giving you a chance to actually recover after their initiative resets.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:08 UTC+1 No.32956862 Report

>>32956749

There's a difference between an init 10 DesStrike and an Init 20 one, y'know. Init 10 is enough to breach heavy armor unless its ResCharm augmented. That will knock you down to your -2 boxes, but not kill you. What happened during my first playtest game last week backs this up, too. And heavy armor fucks with you something fierce if you're dodge heavy, so it's not a gimme either.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:09 UTC+1 No.32956868 Report

>>32956758
>>32956774
That's a large part of what Exigents are for: homebrewing the splats that haven't come out yet. They're the third splat being released for a reason, you know. ;)

In fact, IIRC one of the canonical Exigents (the Chosen of Masks) will probably be using Alchemical-style Charm Slots, because her powers are granted by masks she wears that she can swap between.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:09 UTC+1 No.32956870 Report

>>32956749
You sound like you want to be angry about something, so you're just ignoring any evidence to the contrary.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:09 UTC+1 No.32956881 Report

>>32956778

Yeah just be better and win!

Nothing has improved over 2E, it's just that you have to build initiative now before the killing blow instead of depleting the enemy's motes.

The character will the bigger pools still wins every time.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:10 UTC+1 No.32956889 Report

ITT theorycrafters tell playtesters that they're wrong and the system doesn't work
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:10 UTC+1 No.32956890 Report

>>32956868
>That's a large part of what Exigents are for: homebrewing the splats that haven't come out yet.
FUCK. THAT. My 2e is already thoroughly homebrewed. I'm not going to bullshit my way through new 3e homebrew to build an entire fucking splat I want to play. Until 3e gets the splats I like, it doesn't even exist to me, except as something I'm buying the books for to have the materials ready to play when it's actually complete enough for me to find playable.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:11 UTC+1 No.32956902 Report

>>32956861

Esatto!
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:11 UTC+1 No.32956906 Report

>>32956881

Bigger pools don't matter if some charms work as we think they should. All your alpha striking is worth jack shit if somebody pays himself into debt with Heavenly Guardian Defense and then Init Crashes you to push himself back up.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:11 UTC+1 No.32956909 Report

>>32956889
ITT: People who have been playing since the leak talk about how irrelevant Hardness is.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:12 UTC+1 No.32956920 Report

>>32956862

Armor doesn't count for DesStrikes anyway
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:12 UTC+1 No.32956921 Report

>>32956890
Again, the entire point of Exigents is that you won't have to "bullshit your way through 3e homebrew"; you just open the book, use the Exigent-creation system, and away you go.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:13 UTC+1 No.32956924 Report

>>32956861
If they're better matched than you then youre fucked with our without hardness or any other type of state so its a moot point. And someone dosent have to be better matched to get off a desicive attack, both sides will be doing them.
But most people wont be better matched than you, and having hardness means they have to spend alot longer trying to build their initiative, in which you can get a good hit in before they can.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:13 UTC+1 No.32956931 Report

>>32956921
>Exigent-creation system
"Homebrew toolkit."

Again, FUCK. THAT. I'll play the game when the splats I want actually exist. Same as every other new edition of every RPG I've played.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:14 UTC+1 No.32956942 Report

>>32956909

Nah. As someone who actually DID play a game last weekend, people bitching about useless hardness and M-M-MUH ALPHA STRIKES are full of shit.

>>32956920

If you don't have good enough armor, it's pretty optimal to build up to say, 10 init and then unload because a -2 defense and attack penalty means your enemy is pretty much entirely crippled and you can finish him at your leisure. Armor matters, A LOT, because it means you have to push to Init 11+ or not do anything.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:15 UTC+1 No.32956951 Report

>>32956909
>No you
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:15 UTC+1 No.32956965 Report

>>32956942

Again, armor doesn't count in decisive strikes. How hard is that to understand?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:17 UTC+1 No.32956982 Report

>>32956965
Artifact armor adds hardness AND soak, i think thats where the confusion is coming in.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:19 UTC+1 No.32957007 Report

>>32956965

OK, numbskull, math time.

You have init 9. Your enemy has Heavy Plate (Hardness 10).

You launch a Decisive Strike. You hit. Know what happens?

*DINK!*

Your attack bounces off. No damage, no nothing, it literally just plain bounces off. You lose 1 init for it. Do you see why I'm saying you need to build to init 10+ to Decisive Strike if your enemy has (heavy) armor now? Otherwise, your attacks will not do anything. It turns what would otherwise be a dominant and degenerate strategy ('spam DesStrikes at init 4!') into a no-go. It eliminates chipping damage and instead turns combat into a game of gambits and turnarounds. Is it clearer now? Or do I need to illustrate with an actual combat example?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:19 UTC+1 No.32957014 Report

>>32956906

Enjoy your delusions until this shit goes public and gets OneTrueBuild-ed
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:20 UTC+1 No.32957030 Report

>>32956881
Unless you're fighting the Glorious Solar Concubine, who just make you lose through the power of her boobs. Rose-Lipped Seduction Style + Thousand Courtesan Ways means that she can get pretty much anyone she wants to put down their sword and pull out their cock.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:21 UTC+1 No.32957044 Report

>>32957007

I am sorry, are you really stupid enough to attack with less Initiative than the enemy's hardness?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:22 UTC+1 No.32957057 Report

>>32956475
So, I ended up with this:
Shuko
Speed 5, Accuracy +1, Damage +1L, Defense +3, Rate 3.
N, M, D.
What do you think? Good? Bad? Shitty? Too much?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:22 UTC+1 No.32957060 Report

>>32957014

Instead of being snide, how about you do actual buildwork and put out an example of your One True Build? I know exactly what I'll use as a benchmark to compare things against. If you think the game is broken, the onus is on you to prove it, not on me to defend it.

>>32957044

>Implying you can know your enemy's hardness, beyond a few good guesses.

That's not how it works mon. The GM can just up and tell you what an enemy's stats are, but beyond some obvious cases it's not so clear-cut when an enemy is wearing no armor or light armor, or if his armor is Artifact Medium or Artifact Heavy.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:23 UTC+1 No.32957072 Report

>>32956931
Dude, Homebrew is built right into the corebook of the game, thanks to Evocations. If Homebrew is unacceptable, you're never going to want to play 3e, because you're *always* going to have to start coming up with homebrew every time someone pulls out a daiklave.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:25 UTC+1 No.32957108 Report

>>32957057
Is this mundane or the moonsilver version?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:27 UTC+1 No.32957148 Report

>>32957060

umm what? In what world medium and heavy armor are unrecoqnizable, to the senses of the Exalted at that LOL

And if you think Im wrong and there's a character who can beat someone with larger pools by playing it smart, please post it. Otherwise it's all down to bigger pools, so it's the same as 2E.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:28 UTC+1 No.32957154 Report

>>32957108
Mundane. I was also thinking it should be unable to be improved with craftsmanship... Because damn it, it's just a few hooks into your palm.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:29 UTC+1 No.32957172 Report

>>32957072
Yeah, for the most part, nobody's going to use the Evocation system to actually homebrew. They're going to take the 'example' artifacts and use nothing else. But honestly? I'm totally comfortable throwing Evocations out the window, because I'm sure as hell not going to be using them.

So, AGAIN, I am PERSONALLY not going to be using 3e until it's a semi-complete edition, because I PERSONALLY have ZERO desire to make up the splats I actually enjoy until they come out.

Now can you please stop being so fucking butthurt about me answering someone asking what I intended to do about not having my favorite splats? Jesus fucking christ. I don't give a shit what do you, why should you be so upset about what I do?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:31 UTC+1 No.32957198 Report

>>32957060
>it's not so clear-cut when an enemy is wearing ... Artifact Medium or Artifact Heavy.
Well, judging by 2e's armor categories, I'm not so sure. Artifact Heavy is almost certainly going to involve multiple layers of chainmail or full-body coverage with plates, compared to medium armor being Samurai or Roman Legionnaire armor. It's a pretty obvious difference if your character knows anything about armor.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:31 UTC+1 No.32957199 Report

>>32956931
Eh, to each his own i guess.
I'm confidinte enough in my home brewing to take the states from roll of glorious divinity and trying to port them to 3e, charms not so much but hey.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:32 UTC+1 No.32957218 Report

>>32957148
No ST will straight up tell you 'this man is wearing heavy armor'. He certianlly might describe what the armor looks like but the rest is guesswork.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:33 UTC+1 No.32957234 Report

>>32957172
>Yeah, for the most part, nobody's going to use the Evocation system to actually homebrew. They're going to take the 'example' artifacts and use nothing else.
LOL. Speak for yourself, buddy. Homebrewing is going to be the first thing I'm going to do with it.

>But honestly? I'm totally comfortable throwing Evocations out the window, because I'm sure as hell not going to be using them.
That's a big loss, because Evocations are a cool as hell way of reinforcing the idea that every daiklave is a unique weapon with a history and personality all its own.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:33 UTC+1 No.32957235 Report

>>32957172
>Yeah, for the most part, nobody's going to use the Evocation system to actually homebrew.
speak for yourself.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:34 UTC+1 No.32957241 Report

>>32957218

Yeah. The guesswork of a friggin Solar. Hey, whats the difficulty of recognizing heavy armor? Is it 1? Or is it 2?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:34 UTC+1 No.32957245 Report

>>32957218
>No ST will straight up tell you 'this man is wearing heavy armor'.
In my experience, MOST will tell you that, in the same way that they'll tell you what weapon someone is using. And those who won't? They still describe it in enough detail for it to be pretty fucking obvious.

But clearly you have STs who only half-describe things to you.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:35 UTC+1 No.32957254 Report

>>32957154
You could probably leave it as is. I'd drop the damage to +0B, essentially just giving your fists the D tag, seeing as how they aren't really used for attacking
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:35 UTC+1 No.32957258 Report

>>32957241
Again, most ST just wont let you make that roll sense the distinction is clarified as being arbitrary and mechanical as opposed to a in setting distinction.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:36 UTC+1 No.32957269 Report

>>32957254
Yeah, I wasn't sure on that one, since I figure you could hit someone with the claws and just tear.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:37 UTC+1 No.32957276 Report

>>32957218
You know, I'm reminded of Hardness not operating in a vacuum suddenly. Armor is going to make building Initiative against you a wee bit harder, and you need more Initiative to cut through.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:37 UTC+1 No.32957281 Report

>>32957241
I'd say Intelligence + War or relevant Craft, difficulty 1, personally.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:38 UTC+1 No.32957286 Report

>>32957234
>Speak for yourself, buddy.
I'm speaking based on my experience. Those few people who actually want to homebrew tend to have their shit shot down by STs who have already invested enough time and effort into the game that they're not going to chew through a player's homebrew to balance-check it. That's how homebrew always tends to work, again, in my experience.

So, the sample artifacts will be, by and large, the only things that actually exist in the game, for all intents and purposes.

If you have a different experience, I'd wager you're a ST who enjoys homebrewing or just have a remarkably into-it group, because that's an EXTREMELY common attitude in ALL traditional games.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:38 UTC+1 No.32957293 Report

>>32957269
I'd wage that more on being a stunt than your normal attack, because it is essentially a slap and drag
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:39 UTC+1 No.32957303 Report

>>32957258
>most ST
I think it's just you, anon.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:39 UTC+1 No.32957306 Report

>>32957258

Bullshit. There's nothing arbitrary or mechanical in recognizing superheavy plate over reinforced jacket. That's the stupidest Exalted argument I've ever had.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:40 UTC+1 No.32957312 Report

>>32957286
>Those few people who actually want to homebrew tend to have their shit shot down by STs
Then youre just playing with shit ST's
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:40 UTC+1 No.32957315 Report

>>32957293
Yeah.
I'm reluctant though, because the ST already ok-ed it.
Most my fighting will be done in full animal form anyways. I was mostly asking for feedback on my first homebrew attempt.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:40 UTC+1 No.32957323 Report

>>32957286
You've obviously never played a toolbox game like GURPS or Mutants and Masterminds, or a customisable mech-oriented game like Battletech. Building your own shit is half of the point.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:43 UTC+1 No.32957345 Report

>>32957306
But the thing is 'hardness' isnt an actual thing in setting. I mean you may recognize what type of armor one armor set it, but for your character to suddenly attribute a specific number to it dosent really make sense. That and knowing if someone is using a resistance charm to raise their hardness will be much harder even in the meta sense.
Besides, what advantage does knowing what hardness an enemy has actually give?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:43 UTC+1 No.32957348 Report

>>32957312
I'm playing with STs who neither have the time to commit between sessions to reviewing my homebrew, nor have dedicated the time to getting the system mastery necessary to feel comfortable with it.

You know, hobbyists? Interested in a game? Rather than people who dedicate the kind of bullshit amounts of time we do to lurking around in Exalted Generals and RPG forums? Normal fucking players?

>>32957323
If the Evocation/Exigent system is broken down to the point that it's a simple point buy like GURPS, I'll stand corrected. As described, though, it's just going to give you loose parameters for wholecloth homebrew with a few sample artifacts/exigents as examplse.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:44 UTC+1 No.32957365 Report

>>32957345
Neither is initiative. That doesn't mean that you should be ignorant of how high your Initiative, or that someone's Armor requires a lot more maneuvering to punch through.

>Besides, what advantage does knowing what hardness an enemy has actually give?
Not wasting your initiative on a Decisive Attack that will plink off their armor?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:50 UTC+1 No.32957421 Report

>>32957365
Hardness still gives you more time to wear down your opponent's initiative anyways. And given that only Exalts get artifact armor anyways and resistance charms can modify hardness, it's a much more flexible number than you'd think.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:50 UTC+1 No.32957424 Report

>>32957348
>nor have dedicated the time to getting the system mastery necessary to feel comfortable with it.
If you're playing with STs who are literally uncomfortable with the system thats a pretty good sign they are indeed bad STs. It makes more sense in 2e i guess, and if they are just playing for fun why are they all strict about no homebrewing?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:50 UTC+1 No.32957430 Report

>>32957345

Your character recognizes the protection the armor offers. He doesn't split armor in "soak" and "hardness" but he does recognize the better protection, thus the need for a stronger hit, against heavy armor. Duh!

It's all about superior pools, accuracy, DV, damage, soak, motes, you name it. Just like in 2.0. There's no room for clever tactical decisions reversing the flow of battle, no natural 20 criticals, no ballsy bluffs, no underdogs upsetting the grand masters.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:52 UTC+1 No.32957452 Report

>>32957365
The whole point is not to attack with low inittiative in the first place, very few people will actually do that hardness or no.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:52 UTC+1 No.32957453 Report

>>32957424
In my experience, STs/DMs/GMs are almost never confident enough with the system to homebrew, because that's a whole other level from just being confident enough to run it. They're not arrogant enough to think that they have sufficient mastery to make sure something's balanced, because they don't lurk on internet forums building that mastery up, because they just play for fun once a week instead of dedicating all of their free time to RPGs.

What the fuck kind of people do you play with?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:53 UTC+1 No.32957470 Report

>>32957430
There totally is! Seriously, play the game, don't just look at the pools.

The game is nothing like 2.0
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:54 UTC+1 No.32957488 Report

>>32957453
People who are playing for fun, we really dont care that are homebrews might not be perfect, its casually enough it really dosent matter
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:55 UTC+1 No.32957500 Report

>>32957430
What ttrpg isnt about having higher numbers? Thats where the rpg part comes in.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:56 UTC+1 No.32957508 Report

>>32957365

anyone plinking DesStrike off hardness should go back to playing FATE
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:58 UTC+1 No.32957532 Report

>>32957148

I'll go with a very vanilla build here. We'll see if I'm right or wrong about it.

Melee focused Dawn, built with the following charms:
-Excellent Strike
-Hungry Tiger Technique
-One Weapon Two Blows
-Peony Blossom Technique
-Dipping Swallow Defense
-Bulwark Stance

E1, uses Light weaponry, has Heavy armor (because why not, the hit to Evasion is unimportant). Maxed DEX and Melee and a specialty in a weapon of your choice that fits. This build doesn't really win by having bigger dicepools - in fact, use of Excellent Strike precludes that by definition, because you're trading two dice for a success. It wins because it has a very solid setup for dealing Withering damage and resisting it in turn, allowing it to very quickly rack up high amounts of initiative and set up a crash. Once an enemy is in crash, they can't launch Decisive Attacks, which means the Dawn gets three turns of building up a beefy Peony Blossom Technique killshot, followed by either a Withering attack to avoid payback on a success, or a Decisive Attack on a fail to end things. It also has the advantage of a rapid turnaround if the enemy has the upper hand, because One Weapon Two Blows allows a brutal reversal that will lead to Crash most of the time if you can skip ahead in init. Bulwark Stance is weak, but it helps defend against multiple dudes and sets up HGD at E2. Can you show me how an opponent with bigger dicepools gets the upper hand here?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)17:59 UTC+1 No.32957543 Report

Seconding the 'mandatory homebrew is stupid' thing. I've played more systems than I can remember on the East and West Coast, and I can count the times I've seen homebrew on that level on one hand.

And it's never, ever, ever been remotely balanced. The developers are locking potential players out with their design philosophy. But hey, it's not like Exalted is starving for new blood or anything, right!?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:01 UTC+1 No.32957560 Report

>>32957500

and in 3E, thats where the bonus points vs xp gap comes in. For starters. Thanks Holden!

Then you have multiple abilities with multiple trees, but only a few offer the best bang for your buck. Supernatural abilities will only exacerbate this.

End result? Some of the players are horribly gimped right out of the door, some are horribly overpowered.

Tell me how's that different from 2E?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:01 UTC+1 No.32957562 Report

>>32957543

You need to play more FATE dawg. It's pretty easy to make balanced stunts there. It's only slightly harder to make balanced powers in D&D 4e as well (ask me about my bladesinger, sorcerer, seeker fixes, go ahead). Transparent mechanics (EX3 has those!) make homebrewing a breeze, you just need a decent technical background.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:02 UTC+1 No.32957571 Report

>>32957532
Not the guy you're talking to, but you basically proved his point. More attacks, means more dice. Excellent Strike only works because you're committing your large dice pools to it. And the guy thus exploiting it ends up with lots of Initiative dice.

You just gave a long example showing exactly how essential big dice pools are - at least of the sort that guy was talking bout.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:02 UTC+1 No.32957576 Report

>>32957172
As the guy upthread who excised internals, some people just feel the need to tell you how badwrongfun your game is. Fuck em
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:02 UTC+1 No.32957579 Report

>>32957543
It's hardly mandatory, given that the Exigents book is going to have entire charm sets based on a theme as well as templates.

Exigents are an ST's wet dream because I get carte blanche to throw whatever I like at my group.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:04 UTC+1 No.32957595 Report

>>32957571

Not really. That's the benchmark build. Now I'm waiting for someone to put their balls on the table and test the game. Try building a character using a Heavy weapon, for instance. We'll test them against each other. Brawl, Archery, Thrown, Melee, your choice. I assure you, each of them will have the tools to seize the upper hand.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:04 UTC+1 No.32957598 Report

>>32957579
The entire Exigents discussion was based on an anon telling someone that it's mandatory to homebrew with them if you want to play as Lunars/Infernals/Sidereals within the first few years of 3e. To which he said he would just play 2e instead. So, in this case, you're saying something completely fucking irrelevant.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:04 UTC+1 No.32957599 Report

>>32957560
A. you avoided my question way to go.
B. im really not understanding what your saying. Like you mentioned theres no risk involved just having a higher dice pool, thats wrong, you can take a risk by rolling with a small dice pool and hoping for alot of successes thats what the whole game is based around.
Its differant from 2E in that combat is more than "Who runs out of motes for their perfect defense first"
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:06 UTC+1 No.32957625 Report

>>32957560
Wait, so are you talking about how biggest dicepools dominate, or are you talking about chargen now?

Either way, even a cursory read of the core mechanics shows you that 3E is a very different game than 2E.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:08 UTC+1 No.32957648 Report

>>32957532

Let's start with the simplest example, and btw having extra successes instead of extra dice is not having a smaller pool.

Same charms, better pools, say a character who exploited bonus points better than you did. How do you beat it? You can't. The tricks you do he does too, and better. There isn't a rock-paper-scissors moment. There isn't bluff with a pair of 2s moment. There isn't a natural 20 moment. You lose, 90-95% of the cases against even a marginally better pool.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:09 UTC+1 No.32957655 Report

>>32957560
The main difference is that:

Save or Splat is gone
Perfect or Die is gone
Paranoia combat is gone

I don't think you can make a convincing case otherwise.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:10 UTC+1 No.32957672 Report

>>32957625

How is it different? Faster, sure. But just as deterministic in combat. In fact, it being faster will make One True Builds more obvious.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:11 UTC+1 No.32957685 Report

>>32957648
Or a better build. And note that spending BP more efficiently in chargen doesn't necessarily equate to a better build.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:12 UTC+1 No.32957692 Report

>>32957648
The natural 20 moment is both of you rolling the same pool and you getting more successes than him.
Again, the question you keep avoiding, in what game do two players with the same build but one has a higher numbers does the lower numbers player win. These are the principles all games are based off of.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:12 UTC+1 No.32957695 Report

>>32957655

Perfect or die was spending motes for perfects until the guy with worse pools ran out and got splattered. Now it's the same, but instead of spending motes it's accumulating initiative, and the guy with the better pools does it better and wins.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:13 UTC+1 No.32957704 Report

>>32957672
Because it's not a more attrition slog anymore? That's the big fucking difference.

Why is it that combat that's not so ridiculously swingy as a D20 game a bad thing? The better fighter ought to win most of the time!
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:14 UTC+1 No.32957716 Report

>>32957685

Yep. Now guess who has the better build?

The guy who optimized bonus points, chose the most powerplay supernatural ability and chose the most overpowered charm trees. Everything was pre-decided prior to combat. That's what a One True Build is.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:14 UTC+1 No.32957719 Report

>>32957695
Wrong. In perfect or die it was about having more motes than the other guy. Having better combat stats means you SHOULD beat a guy with worse combat stats, when is this ever not true. That isnt a point against the game it means the system actually works.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:16 UTC+1 No.32957739 Report

>>32957716
You keep dodging this question. In what game does optimizing your build NOT mean you have an advantage in combat. How is exalted 3e any worse than any other ttrpg in this sense.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:17 UTC+1 No.32957754 Report

>>32957719

because I prefer games where making the right tactical decision in combat, whether by a faint, bluff, something bold, whatever, can win you the fight against higher stats. Otherwise, it's all number crunching done in chargen and spending XP and getting the right gear. It's accounting, not heroism.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:19 UTC+1 No.32957777 Report

>>32957754
I ask again, in what game does having better combat states not make you better at combat.
It isnt a sure fire win even in exalted, you can still end up with more success or just use different charms than the other guy is using.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:21 UTC+1 No.32957797 Report

>>32957777

better is one thing, pre-determined winner is another

what you have right now is asking for a True Build; either have it or be loser
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:22 UTC+1 No.32957809 Report

>>32957797
So what youre saying is you dont actually have an answer and are just pulling things out of your ass. Gotcha
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:23 UTC+1 No.32957818 Report

>>32957695
It's nowhere near as static, for one thing. Instead of turtling, you have a reason to be on the offensive ASAP. So no, it's much more dynamic than 2E

Second, combat is swingy enough that a person with better stats can roll worse than a weaker opponent. I ran a session where a PC was in a fight with a heroic mortal, and nearly got killed because she blew her own initiative to early and narrowly got crashed.

The system is nowhere near as deterministic as you think it is, and I really think you should play the game rather than treat the fact that a stronger person is much more likely to beat a weaker person as a design flaw.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:24 UTC+1 No.32957839 Report

>>32957809

Im saying that when this shit is out you'll be the first one to cry "unfair" when the True Build spanks you ass 10 out of 10. Comprende?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:25 UTC+1 No.32957841 Report

>>32957797
Please give me this infallible build and I will take you more seriously.

Aside from "keep your Dex high," that's as far as concepts from 2E combat go.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:26 UTC+1 No.32957858 Report

>>32957839
Can you tell us what the true build even is?

Because I can't help but think you're like one of those people awaiting the rapture.

When Christ descends, THEN you'll be sorry!
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:27 UTC+1 No.32957860 Report

>>32957839
Even though "one true build" is something that's an explicit goal to eradicate this edition, and part of the playtest process.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:27 UTC+1 No.32957868 Report

>>32957818

The one good thing about this system is that it is faster, so when the game is out it'll take little time for the TrueBuild to establish itself
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:28 UTC+1 No.32957882 Report

>>32957868
>so when the game is out it'll take little time for the TrueBuild to establish itself


At whihc point, every group worth playing with will say "Fuck that, play something else"

Damn, that was easy.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:28 UTC+1 No.32957883 Report

>>32957868
Keep telling yourself that anon
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:29 UTC+1 No.32957888 Report

>>32957868
Yes, yes, and the True Build will come down from on high to punish all sinners.

I have to admit I'm finding this more funny than rage inducing now.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:31 UTC+1 No.32957900 Report

>>32957276
On the other hand it will make things dangerously binary which can lead to a lot of complaints.

Init 9? Dink.
Init 10? Plink.
Init 12? Tink
Init 13? OVERKILL?!?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:31 UTC+1 No.32957904 Report

>>32955228
The saber part is irrelevant, the slayers bare a Cross. For theyare the chosen of the king of kings.
UCS is the morning star triumphant.
He stole the world from its makers, gave it to 300 mary sues 100 peggysues and 300 furries, and never checked back in.
So yes, your master is the devil.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:31 UTC+1 No.32957912 Report

>>32957560
>and in 3E, thats where the bonus points vs xp gap comes in
I'm mostly liking what I've seen of Ex3, but the decision to keep BP/XP divide continues to puzzle me. What puzzles me even more is that when the issue has been discussed in RPGnet or OPP forums, Holden has seemed like he just genuinely and legitimately doesn't understand why people have a problem with it. Despite people repeatedly and clearly explaining why they have a problem with it.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:32 UTC+1 No.32957916 Report

>>32957858

Sure. It's like playing Starcraft but only one of three Races is worth a damn. Not something like 40-35-25 winrate, but 95-5-0. So the two other races are waste of design space.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:32 UTC+1 No.32957920 Report

>>32957900
Ideally, you should always be trying to hot back before it gets to that threshold. Hardness means they can't buckle and dime you to death.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:34 UTC+1 No.32957951 Report

>When the game comes out the people power gaming combat focused characters will beat those who arent!
Shit guys anon is totaly right what the hell!? Worst game of the year 0/10 horrible design choices.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:34 UTC+1 No.32957960 Report

>>32957916
No, you jackass.

I mean what even is the One True Build in 3 E. I wish to learn more of your religion.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:35 UTC+1 No.32957971 Report

>>32957951
That's not what this is about, anon. Nice strawman, though.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:35 UTC+1 No.32957973 Report

>>32957286
>because that's an EXTREMELY common attitude in ALL traditional games.
No, you have a small sample of terrible GMs.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:37 UTC+1 No.32958008 Report

>>32957971
uhhh
>Im saying that when this shit is out you'll be the first one to cry "unfair" when the True Build spanks you ass 10 out of 10. Comprende?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:37 UTC+1 No.32958011 Report

>>32957739
In nearly all games it's an advantage. How can it not? And this in and of itself isn't necessarily a bad thing.

It only becomes bad when "normal combat guy" vs "optimized combat guy" goes from the latter having an edge to the latter being utterly insurmountable. Like 2e "examples of builds in the book" vs "has a paranoia combo". One of these can't even hope for 'criticals' or 'fumbles' or anything on the other side to tip the scales, he loses. He loses and he loses hard, decisively, with no fucking hope to ever change things short of "target was at 0 motes when you started because he just finished a paranoia duel with another and they both ran out a tick apart".

If optimization is the difference between Batman and Nightwing that's one thing. If it's the difference between Vulture and Galactus, you've got a fucking problem!
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:38 UTC+1 No.32958019 Report

>>32957348
So STs who can't be arsed to learn the game is the norm, and everyone else is a no-lifer who's doing it wrong?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:38 UTC+1 No.32958020 Report

>>32957912

This is the biggest contributor to my belief that the playtest is going to mostly boil down to reinforcing the bad design decisions of the developers.

BP/XP is retarded and anyone who can't see why that's the case is similarly retarded.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:38 UTC+1 No.32958021 Report

>>32957286
>My ST is a faggot, that means ALL STs are faggots!

Not even remotely, retard. If you're playing tabletop as some sort of insane board game with way too many dice instead of cooperative storytelling, you're playing tabletop wrong.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:39 UTC+1 No.32958033 Report

>>32958011
And from everything we've seen of 3e its the difference between batman and nightwing.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:40 UTC+1 No.32958041 Report

>>32958011
CAN YOU SHOW US THIS ISSUE IN 3E PLEASE???

I THINK THE DEVS OUGHT TO KNOW.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:41 UTC+1 No.32958056 Report

>>32958020
Most playtesters hate BP/XP too, so don't worry about that.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:42 UTC+1 No.32958067 Report

>>32957882
Which is very bad for the game in general.

>>32957860
It is, but that's why people are so vocal about anything that's already or potentially a problem that they find. Take it as as showing that people do care. Many games have some grievous imbalances but short of RIFTS tend to at least state they have or want balance.

If it's achieved, said balance? Fucking great.
If it's "Achieved", less good.
If it's not achieved but the devs and/or rabid defenders say it is? Well that's Exalted 2 or Pathfinder.

We're trying to ensure option 1, and pointing out all the ways shit can go wrong or be used in an imbalanced fashion is a ventful (because we do like venting and bitching, it relaxes and entertains us) way of doing that.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:42 UTC+1 No.32958070 Report

>>32958011
It seems to me like you had a Shit-tier d20 group at some point, and this experience has tinted all your future groups with gamey min-max bullshit goggles.

I suggest having fun at least once a week for the next six months and seeing if that clears it up.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:44 UTC+1 No.32958097 Report

>>32958056
Holden seems to be pretty adamant about maintaining that divide, though. At least that was his position last time I read an RPGnet thread about the subject.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:45 UTC+1 No.32958107 Report

>>32958011
That can't happen in 3E, because turtling is now objectively suboptimal.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:45 UTC+1 No.32958111 Report

>>32958033
>>32958041
I haven't found it personally yet, I was simply explaining that optimization does not necessarily mean there's "One True Build"/set-of-builds, but that it is indeed possible for this to occur.

We must be hopeful but ever vigilant.


... Well there IS the XP loop one, that's certainly a hole that needs plugging.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:46 UTC+1 No.32958126 Report

Guys please ignore the min max troll, hes only shitting up the thread
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:46 UTC+1 No.32958136 Report

>>32958097
He is. That doesn't mean the playtesters agree with him.

The rest just feel they can live with it and there are bigger priorities. He's weirdly stubborn about this one thing.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:47 UTC+1 No.32958142 Report

>>32958067
>Which is very bad for the game in general.

How so? How is a group self-moderating and keeping the tone of the game they want bad for the game?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:48 UTC+1 No.32958163 Report

>>32958126
Yeah, until he can actually show us something that needs fixing instead of heralding the One True Build's coming, I'm done.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:48 UTC+1 No.32958172 Report

>>32958126
Is he the same guy arguing about homebrew? And hardness? Is one guy just shitting up the thread?

Anyway. Brawl: Best combat ability, discuss.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:49 UTC+1 No.32958184 Report

>>32958111
The XP loop doesn't actually make you win at combat, though.

It's purely for crafting.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:50 UTC+1 No.32958191 Report

>>32957960

whatever charm trees Holden most mastrubates over when the game is due, faggot

I dont fucking care if its going to be melee archery brawl whatever. What does it matter which ability, and which trees in it, everyone wanting to be good at combat will have to pick?

What matters is that you'll have to play it, or be useless and probably die too. Ring a bell for 2E now? Or do you need more instructions?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:50 UTC+1 No.32958201 Report

>>32958136
Well, I guess BP/XP divide is pretty easy to houserule away, if nothing else.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:51 UTC+1 No.32958207 Report

>>32958191
Ahuh, sure thing buddy.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:51 UTC+1 No.32958216 Report

>>32958191
>I JUST KNOW IT WILL HAPPEN BECAUSE

Fuck off, retard
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:53 UTC+1 No.32958244 Report

>>32958191
At this point it is pretty clear that you're just trolling, but since I'm a weak-willed bastard who has nothing better to do, I'll fall for your bait. How the hell can you say with such confidence that there will be One True Build if you're completely unable to point out or even guess at what that build will be? That makes no sense.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:53 UTC+1 No.32958247 Report

>>32958216

Prapare to suck my cock when the game is out, jackass
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:55 UTC+1 No.32958274 Report

>>32958191
So your whole argument is based on the belief that there exists (or will exist) a charm tree that is going to be mandatory to be good at combat but can't say which one it is other than "a combat tree". However, there MUST be such a tree because you hate Holden.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:55 UTC+1 No.32958286 Report

>>32958247
And you call other people a faggot. What irony.

If anyone can't tell by now, this guy is just trolling. I think he's been trolling this thread for a while.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:56 UTC+1 No.32958294 Report

>>32958247
Let's pretend we live in a crazy world where something with this much playtesting will get through as obscenely broken as you're afraid it will, so busted that it's WoW-tier 'mandatory'.

We still have
>Errata
>Houserules
>Straight up Pun-pun Ban
>A competent ST playing towards an ENTIRE group's strengths instead of the Group Goku

To mitigate such a balance clusterfuck.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:56 UTC+1 No.32958295 Report

>>32958286
Several of us in rotation, actually.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:57 UTC+1 No.32958314 Report

>>32958070
Actually I only encountered that problem twice in the past four years.

In the first, it was a DB game where one person instead got to play a Solar (which we only found out way later due to magical night caste shenanigans and somehow she was getting to not have to worry about blazing elemental aura fields either). For about two charms in a tree she was better than specialists (XP cost differences sure as fuck weren't helping), and by mid E3 we just gave up; it was the adventures of paranoia combo and her four worthless spectators.

Once in Hero System 5e (we use gurps now instead, much better) one of ours, always liking to be "tanky" (he plays dwarves, 'the heavy', and so on) semi-accidentally made himself immune to all non-mental damage. He was so vulnerable to the latter that the outcome of ANYTHING AT ALL, FIGHT OR NOT was determined by whether or not it was traumatic/horrifying and/or mindrapey, or not. By taking invulnerability to damage he was also saving a lot of points over say, my forcefield method of avoiding damage, or the superspeeder's dodgefest. We just killed that after two sessions of maximal binary outcomes.

That's all. Why just last night I dislocated a vampire's forearm and pinned him face into the concrete with my melee-reinforced Jezzail (his speed and strength are quite extra...ordinary, but his kung-fu no match for mine) while our medic plugged its sparkling face with silver hollowpoints with one hand, staunching the bleeding of our knight with the other.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)18:58 UTC+1 No.32958330 Report

>>32958142
No, "Fuck that let's play something else" is bad for the game in general.

If reading a game's rules makes people think/say that, that's not a good thing!
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:00 UTC+1 No.32958351 Report

>>32958184
It's standard general xp, not crafting xp.
So it will over time.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:00 UTC+1 No.32958355 Report

Anon who posted the build here, back at last after watching some slick-ass football. Still waiting for literally anybody to build a challenger build to try and prove to me that the truebuild is undefeatable. Come on, what do you have to fear? I'm here and my time is open. The docs are there for anyone to make a character with. Make your Exalt and we'll match him with mine over IRC. Combat testing is fun and I want to put these fears to rest. Anybody who wants it can come in and watch, too. Is there no fellow minmaxer here who can churn out a tippity top build? Is everybody afraid of putting money where their mouth is? C'mon, anons. We've got a game to test. Let's test it with all we've got.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:00 UTC+1 No.32958364 Report

>>32958330
The question was "Why is that bad?" not "Do you think this is bad?"

you can try again, I think you might be able to at least aim at the target this time, even if you can't hit it.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:02 UTC+1 No.32958388 Report

>>32958355
>literally someone asking anyone to 1v1 him mid USING PLAYTEST RULES FOR A TABLETOP GAME

Holy shit what the fuck is going on
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:03 UTC+1 No.32958400 Report

>>32958364
>cannot see how a system that causes people reading it to say "fuck this let's play something else" is bad for that system

FATAL and ROLLMASTER get great sales, lately anon?
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:03 UTC+1 No.32958407 Report

>>32958388

Testing, bro. I'm calling the Exalted thread out. You think this game is shit? Prove it. Come show me all about those broken mechanics. Try and snap the game like a twig. This is, after all, how proper feedback is obtained - via actual tests.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:05 UTC+1 No.32958428 Report

>>32958172
I respect your pugilism, and raise you a dashing melee swashbuckler.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:06 UTC+1 No.32958434 Report

>>32958400
Group moderation is ubiquitous to ALL systems, across the board, across all generations, editions, dice types, genres, and settings. It is a not a new thing, it is a thing as standard as character sheets.

>>32958407
>How feedback is obtained
>Feedback for an iteration of an in-development system that the people making already know is busted and have iterated upon since
I'm done, I'm sorry for being baited as long as I have been.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:06 UTC+1 No.32958439 Report

>>32958428
I was going to make a melee character, who swung a huge goremaul around. Then realised that there's no interesting build for that character.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:10 UTC+1 No.32958481 Report

>>32958439
Im hoping in the final build they'll have more fluff to the charms to give them more taste.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:10 UTC+1 No.32958483 Report

>>32958407

Minions are busted. I could roll it out in exacting detail if you want, but it's really obvious. A big boss with a bunch of weaker minions is going to be significantly more vulnerable due to his minions getting Initiative raped. The Onslaught is rarely enough to justify the minions, especially when charms come into the picture to take away that penalty.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:10 UTC+1 No.32958484 Report

>>32958439

I dunno, the Iron Raptor line plus the Counterstrike line make for a sick-ass Hammer Bros build. I think there's room for some Athletics + Melee shenanigans there.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:12 UTC+1 No.32958505 Report

So supposing i want to make a social character. Zenith or eclipse?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:12 UTC+1 No.32958508 Report

>>32958481
Maybe, but they still won't be interesting mechanically.
>>32958484
Maybe, but that's much faster and more dextrous than I envisioned the character. Besides, doesn't quite compare to Heaven Thunder Hammer.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:12 UTC+1 No.32958511 Report

>>32958483

I find that unlikely. Turn advantage is Kind Of A Big Deal. All the minions need to do is conserve themselves for a burst turn of focus fire and almost any Exalt will be knocked down unless he invests in penalty negators. Until then, though, yeah, they gotta play it safe.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:13 UTC+1 No.32958521 Report

>>32958244

uhhh

OK, let me explain it another way. There's nothing bad about having one most optimal build. That's not what causes paranoia combos.

The problem is when all other, secondary builds, are so much worse they are borderline unplayable compared to the best.

Starcraft doesn't have one true race. Why? Because even if at some point one race has an advantage, the other are still reasonably close to it.

From the looks of it, 3E won't manage this feat. One of the combat trees will be leading vastly, coupled with the most optimal bp/xp buy of attrubutes, and that's going to be it. You'll either play it or be a deadweight in combat.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:13 UTC+1 No.32958522 Report

>>32958505
anything
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:13 UTC+1 No.32958527 Report

>>32958019
>doing it wrong
No, you're just being unrealistic to think that homebrewing is the norm, or that most people who play the game will have even the slightest interest in it. I, for example, can't be bothered to spend the effort adding new content before I even actually play a game. I don't see that as a leisure activity, which is what most people see games as.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:14 UTC+1 No.32958537 Report

>>32958505
Depends what you're going to be doing with the social character.

Are you going to be a leader, or a lawyer? Someone who inspires, or someone who manipulates, behind the scenes?

From a purely mechanical standpoint, though, you want a Zenith. 3 social abilities instead of 2. The only reason to ever take Eclipse in 2e is for the anima power.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:15 UTC+1 No.32958560 Report

>>32958508

Can we agree that it's kind of neat that 'I can't make a character who fights like a Zelda Iron Knuckle' is one of the most legitimate complaints about the system, though? In Exalted 2e we would've had much bigger issues to worry about.

>>32958521

Still waiting for people like you to make a True Build or shut up. This isn't hard, bro, tabletop RPGs aren't exactly MOBA level complicated. The number of moving pieces is limited and small.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:17 UTC+1 No.32958582 Report

>>32958521
What build is this again
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:17 UTC+1 No.32958586 Report

>>32958294

How did these work out for 2E then?
Oh
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:17 UTC+1 No.32958593 Report

>>32958527
If a game offers you material, and you complain that people won't utilize it out of laziness, then that's the fault of the lazy.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:18 UTC+1 No.32958594 Report

>>32958511

And if the Exalt has penalty negators? Again, I can roll this out if you want, but if I'm the Invincible Sword Princess against a big bad and five of his minions, assuming I capture first strike I can Flow Like Blood and then alpha strike a minion to ensure that I don't take any Onslaught from then on, period.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:19 UTC+1 No.32958615 Report

>>32958586
Strength of Many plz!

Plz!!!

I'm so unhappy SA is down right now, just because of you.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:20 UTC+1 No.32958630 Report

>>32958521
You do realize that none of that addresses my point, at all? Most of what you say is obvious and has not been disputed anywhere in this thread, not by me and not by others. Your concluding statement, however, is completely baseless. Making a claim like "3E won't manage this feat" is completely worthless when you fail to provided any evidence or even convincing speculation to back this up. You should make at least a token effort to provide something to support your claims.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:20 UTC+1 No.32958634 Report

>>32958586
Quite well, actually. Like adults, we explaine do the powergaming faggot that we didn't want that sort of thing at our table, and he made a little "oh" then restatted the character to not be a powergaming faggot.

We then went on to have a long running game that had a satisfying conclusion and multiple arcs.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:20 UTC+1 No.32958635 Report

>>32958594
I'll admit, there is an onus on the ST to make sure there isn't a punching bag for the players to warm up with.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:21 UTC+1 No.32958642 Report

>>32947913
3rd ed infernals are slated to get there charms from 3rd circles instead of directly from Yozi, who are returning to a more geographical feature like form.

I disagree that you shouldn't include them, 2nd ed infernals are incredibly fun and explicitly don't have to be evil. I played in a group that was all infernals defying the reclamation and attempting to Devil-Tiger. It was fun.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:21 UTC+1 No.32958651 Report

>>32958582

The One True Build, sheesh, get with the program you pleb

>>32958594

If you have penalty negators, you're gonna suffer from mote burn. Bulwark Stance costs five motes to use, that's all your mote regen. Add attack charms and you start going mote negative. Let's also remember that it's actually not that hard for the BBEG to hit you and cancel your Flow Like Blood. Stuff like Excellent Strike and Rising Sun Slash goes a long, long way towards shutting these combos down. The very best possible dodgebuild will have shit soak and a defense of, like, nine, max. That's pretty easy to pierce.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:23 UTC+1 No.32958677 Report

>>32958651
>The very best possible dodgebuild will have shit soak and a defense of, like, nine, max. That's pretty easy to pierce.

That's... a little concerning. Is it possible to parry with any attack ability yet?
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:24 UTC+1 No.32958699 Report

>>32958658
Plz no!!! D:

Ok so who wants to talk about 3E Presence? I think it's the best tree for getting the most out of your followers if you're not engaging in outright warfare.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:25 UTC+1 No.32958710 Report

>>32958651

Uh, Flow Like Blood is two charms into Dodge and scenelong. This is also severely missing the point - that minions are LIABILITIES. It doesn't matter that the BBEG has Excellent Strike and Rising Sun Slash, because he's up against the Invincible Sword Princess's ever-bloating Initiative courtesy of his easily-smacked minions who can't even contribute Onslaught.

BBEG is better off in this situation being there alone, every time. That's unacceptable.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:29 UTC+1 No.32958772 Report

>>32958635

This invalidates a lot of combat scenarios, though. Initiative just seems like it could use a tweak - it doesn't make a lot of sense to beat on a weak enemy and then carry all the Initiative you struck him for into a Decisive Strike on a stronger guy.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:30 UTC+1 No.32958792 Report

>>32958677

No. Just melee and brawl I think. And why is it concerning? Dodge has the best PD, hands down, and gets a ghetto Heavenly Guardian Defense as its opening E1 charm on top, and it can get an in-tree Evasion increase if it dodges an attack. And it even generates extra health boxes for tankmore, too! Not to mention the Solar has a true blue heal, even. Something's gotta give somewhere, not being able to use heavy armor without Resistance charm investment is a solid way to balance things out.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:31 UTC+1 No.32958803 Report

>>32958710
You ought to give the BBEG comparatively powerful minions, yes. At least merge them into a battle group to make them more dangerous to the party.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:31 UTC+1 No.32958810 Report

>>32958710

Nope. Flow Like Blood is a perilous charm. You lose it if you suffer initiative crash. Translation: The BBEG goes for crashing you, and once he's done his minions dogpile you and turn you into a bloody pulp on the ground.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:32 UTC+1 No.32958817 Report

>>32958792
>And why is it concerning?
Because not everyone's going to be working on the Solar charmset, so I'd like if base dodge could match up to base parry, considering you get way more bang for your buck by investing in an ability that can parry.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:32 UTC+1 No.32958820 Report

>>32958803
This. Minions shuld never be considered as individuals.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:32 UTC+1 No.32958825 Report

>>32958651
Regarding Regen, does everyone regen the same amount per turn? Back in 2e solar supremacy and DB worthlessness (and non-SMA-Sid worthlessness) wasn't just an issue of one charm, but constant compounded differences at every turn (less powerful charms but more expensive AND more restricted AND much less mote pool AND less value from ox-body AND lower dice pool maximums AND....)

So, regen. 5 for everyone, no charms/etc to change this so far?
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:32 UTC+1 No.32958828 Report

>>32958772
It does, if you interpret initiative as momentum and just a general eagerness to fight. In that case, mowing down a group of chumps is an excellent warmup.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:33 UTC+1 No.32958847 Report

>>32958593
When the 'material' the game offers is 'so, uh, make your own material, I guess? We've got a few suggestions, but it's basically all on you,' then they aren't actually offering shit.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:34 UTC+1 No.32958852 Report

>>32958351

The XP cost that you pay to get it (and again, its a playtest and that probably won't exist in the final draft) means that it will never give you net returns except over a looooooooooooooong-ass game.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:34 UTC+1 No.32958855 Report

>>32958699
One thing ive noticed and grown to love is how not alot of presence charms are mute. Plenty of socialize charms are but presence is all about being up front about things and go big or go home. So in a way it makes sense.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:34 UTC+1 No.32958859 Report

>>32958817

Base dodge has the advantage of making it easier to do fighting retreats. Once somebody with Parry gets caught out, he's in it until he's dead or his enemies are. Being able to pick your fights balances out the lack of armor.

>>32958825

I don't think I've seen a single charm that changes this, no. I may be wrong, but in general nothing up and grants free motes.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:34 UTC+1 No.32958862 Report

>>32958810

Stop this preposterous line of thinking. HOW is the BBEG going to Crash you, if your Initiative is constantly rocketing through the roof by slamming on his people? If he can Crash you despite that, then what the hell are minions bringing to the table? Nothing.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:34 UTC+1 No.32958867 Report

>>32958825
There's a performance charm that let's you increase the regen for your group to 6m/round. You have to be strumming an instrument constantly though .
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:36 UTC+1 No.32958893 Report

>>32958820

'Minions' does not necessarily refer to extras. It can mean people who are competent fighters in their own right, yet not as good as the big boss in the battle. Unless their defenses are just as maxed as the boss's, they constitute a liability. That's not good game design.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:37 UTC+1 No.32958902 Report

>>32958847
You mean 'we're offering an entire book of examples and guidelines for evocations and another entire book for examples and guidelines for charms.'? Because there's a gulf of difference. Your laziness is doing harm to your group.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:37 UTC+1 No.32958910 Report

>>32958862

By having his minions stay back until you're crashed. What, you thought he couldn't yell "STAY BACK! HE BELONGS TO ME!" and then come smack you for trying to get clever with his minions? There's ways for them to contribute that don't necessitate a direct attack on you, as well. Tactics can be adjusted to suit the opponent, ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK is not the only way to fight.

>>32958867
Right, I forgot the Battle Hymns. But considering you literally have to give up your turn, it's a pretty clear balance.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:39 UTC+1 No.32958930 Report

>>32958893
Keep in mind that there is a party of combatants on both sides, and not all of the PCs in the fight are as optimized as the Invincible Sword Princess. In this scenario it is best to maintain rough parity with the party as a whole, and the minions will engage with weaker members.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:39 UTC+1 No.32958934 Report

>>32958828

It also means that a baddie who has sent a group of chumps against you to wear you down before he engages has done precisely the opposite, and actually shot himself in the foot.

I don't understand why people are so resistant to the idea that this could be improved upon. It doesn't auger well considering the system's not even complete.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:41 UTC+1 No.32958960 Report

>>32958910
Yeah something like that is fine.
I was more worried about "reactor charms" or even "Solars regen 5/round, Infernals and Lunars 4, Sids 3, DBs 1 and the rest just out of combat!" or some other fucktarded shit.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:42 UTC+1 No.32958971 Report

>>32958910

So the BBEG is yelling "STAY BACK!" not because of hubris or an eagerness to engage the ISP, but because the ST is metagaming so that the minions don't immediately lose the BBEG the fight.

I'm not saying there should only be one way to fight. I'm saying the system shouldn't invalidate more than one way to fight.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:42 UTC+1 No.32958978 Report

>>32958930
That's still pretty shitty though.
"Okay, I fight the boss, while the four of you handle a minion each!"
"Hold on, man, I'm not sure I CAN handle a minion, the ST made them so you could take the group on all at once"
"Well maybe you shouldn't have chosen Thrown!"
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:42 UTC+1 No.32958980 Report

>>32958630

Again, it doesn't matter which charms as of right now make the cut

The problem is the system eschews bluffs and fully-player dependent choices in general

currently, we have 2 beats 1

instead, we could have a rock-paper-scissors, where being better results in each of the successful guesses being worth twice as much as the weaker enemy's.

So the min/maxed character is still twice as strong, but the underdog has a fighting chance if he makes the right tactical decisions.

That's a much better system. It rewards both good builds (x2 points for being right) but also rewards tactical acumen in combat.

And we don't have this.

Instead, we have a vague hope that maybe the combat ability trees are somewhat equal in power because power is so deterministic. That's a fool's hope in systems that employ large dice pools as even a small stat advantage skews the results brutally.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:43 UTC+1 No.32958991 Report

>>32958934
Personally, I just don't mind. It seems genre appropriate at the very least.

I'd still think it's smart to give minions the ability to hit and hurt an opponent, making them a bad thing to ignore. Battle Group rules ought to make mooks more competitive, not to mention that withering attacks also drain their Magnitude, limiting the initiative that can be stolen.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:44 UTC+1 No.32959001 Report

>>32958910
>By having his minions stay back until you're crashed.
That's fluff. The game can't represent that except by maybe putting those minions in cover. Nothing will stop the player from attacking those minions.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:44 UTC+1 No.32959008 Report

>>32958978
Thrown is pretty sweet now though.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:45 UTC+1 No.32959018 Report

>>32958930

That works from an ST perspective, but not a balance perspective. Party members can effectively count as the ISP's minions in a battle as well, and similarly serve as a liability to her.

In short, the system currently depends on a tacit agreement between the players and the ST, one that says that they will only play within the boundaries that the system can handle. Big boss is dealt mostly with ISP, while weaker minions engage weaker party members.

But if that is violated, the balance falls apart. It pigeonholes groups. If the big boss alpha strike Crashes ISP's bookish Twilight companions and suddenly has an unbeatable treasure trove of Initiative, that's not good!
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:47 UTC+1 No.32959049 Report

>>32958971

Battle groups really just need to be able to make Gambits. Assuming that's a thing, they become hella dangerous because sheesh, can you imagine how much getting Disarmed would suck while fighting the BBEG?

>>32958980

Again, make a build and take it out for a spin. I'm not going to let you spout bullshit until you back it up. I'm positive I could even defeat your build with a flashy technical knockout instead of just grinding out the health levels, to boot.

>>32959001

Except being Engaged by the BBEG while the minions do ranged attacks, you mean? Or attack areas to create environmental hazards? The system is deeper than you think it is.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:48 UTC+1 No.32959068 Report

>>32959018
A fair deal of the game assumes a non-adversariel ST, given how much is dependent on player/GM cooperation.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:49 UTC+1 No.32959076 Report

>>32959018

This actually happened in my own playtest. The Eclipse got almost crushed by a heroic mortal, forcing my Dawn and the Zenith to chain a super Withering attack to lower init to near nothing and a Grapple to throw the dude into the sun. It was super hype and a cash moment, not a system fail.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:50 UTC+1 No.32959094 Report

>>32958991

Battle Group rules are a decent enough band-aid, but they don't cover all or even, in my view, most of the failings outlined here. They're still something of a liability anyway, just a mitigated one.

What we should be striving for is to get a more ideal system, one where the Initiative and Momentum mechanics still function smoothly but don't have these weird interactions that make the developers add notes to the packet saying "Uh, no, you can't beat up on your own ally to send your Initiative through the roof"
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:52 UTC+1 No.32959121 Report

>>32959049
If the minions are standing back doing ranged attacks then they're not letting the BBEG fight alone, which is what you claimed could happen. And good luck keeping a party of three to five Solars in close range to your one BBEG at all times.
>>
Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:53 UTC+1 No.32959131 Report

>>32958934
>It also means that a baddie who has sent a group of chumps against you to wear you down before he engages has done precisely the opposite, and actually shot himself in the foot.
This puts the traditional tactics of the Wyld Hunt to a new light.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:53 UTC+1 No.32959132 Report

>>32959076

...and it worked because you were facing a HEROIC MORTAL. That's the definition of system fail.

(yes, Heroic Mortals should be a threat, but in this scenario it should only have been on the Eclipse - the rest of the Circle shouldn't have been placed in a do-or-die situation because of this)
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:54 UTC+1 No.32959160 Report

>>32959094
I agree and so should everyone else. I hope the system gets improved so those interactions don't exist.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:55 UTC+1 No.32959181 Report

>>32959068

Your point is well-taken, but it doesn't have a bearing on the actual balance of the system. Playtesting is about pushing boundaries, and some aspects of the system are clearly straining. We should be trying to make it better, not accepting it as the best of all possible worlds.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:55 UTC+1 No.32959191 Report

>>32959094

"Don't attack an ally, you retard" is not a system failing. If somebody is trying to do that, you're welcome to have enemies snipe their friends down for being so retarded. Remember, people in crash lose access to a lot of powerful defensive charms!

>>32959121

If three to five Solars want to fight one BBEG, that BBEG is going to be tricked out to the eyeballs and won't be fighting using minions, he'll have full-blown characters backing him up. Minions are what you use for less characters, as a rule, because they're weaklings.

>>32959132

Only the Eclipse was in do-or-die, believe me. We just didn't want her to, y'know, die, so we went all out to prevent a potential kill if the dice decided to be assholes. The HM had no chance of killing me because of my armor hardness, in fact (the Zenith was at some risk because of >tfw no armor, but had so many motes he could easily burn 10 on upping his defense by tons and dodge any killshots coming at him).
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:56 UTC+1 No.32959199 Report

Guys please stop responding, he's not only trolling but pretty clearly has no idea how the system works.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:56 UTC+1 No.32959205 Report

>>32959160
What would you propose as a fix? Tracking initiative totals differently between one group and another is a possibility but it's also terribly clunky.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)19:58 UTC+1 No.32959233 Report

>>32959199
I think the true build guy is different from the minion guy. Either way, the minion guy is making actual arguments, whether one agrees or disagrees.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)20:00 UTC+1 No.32959260 Report

>>32959233

Yeah, this. For all that I disagree with him, he's talking decent sense as opposed to being more retarded than the entire crew of special olympics athletes combined. It's possible to have a decent discussion with him.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)20:01 UTC+1 No.32959286 Report

>>32959191

If it wasn't a system failing, the developers wouldn't have invalidated it in the packet. And if the ally dies, who cares? I'm not necessarily talking about beating on fellow PCs here, after all.

As for whether you think so or not, you were also in danger if the HM Crashed the Eclipse, because if the HM had that much Initiative he could have turned it on you.

The reason that didn't end up as a debacle for you is because you vastly outclassed your opponent. That doesn't mean there aren't ways the system can be improved.

>>32959233

I'm not the true build guy. I can't even see the point in entertaining that argument.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)20:03 UTC+1 No.32959311 Report

>>32959260
thanks for the clarification
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)20:06 UTC+1 No.32959361 Report

>>32959286

The possibility of things ending in debacle is a good thing, though. Tension has to exist in combat, and making it so you have to prevent init counts from rising instead of grinding HP down makes fights at the same time more swingy in the right ways (one strike ends everything!) and less in the bad ones (you have total control over whether someone gets to launch a killshot or not, you just gotta play right). It's a good system, I promise it. Get a group together and give it a try. A lot of my complaints vanished in actual play.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)20:08 UTC+1 No.32959390 Report

Also if it hasn't been clear, when I say 'minions' in this context it can very well refer to full-blown characters who haven't specced their defense as hard as the others. Their comparatively worse defense creates an opening for otherwise very robust high soak/high hardness characters, because they can be Crashed, Init drained, and turned against the tank.

This applies for PCs and BBEGs alike. I'm not quite sure how to alleviate it, but I'm trying to point out the problem so we can have a robust discussion on improving it.

For starters, one possible idea is the Initiative Break bonus should only apply against the character you Crashed, and if you suffer Initiative damage from any source you lose that bonus. That's a step in the right direction, I think.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)20:09 UTC+1 No.32959414 Report

>>32959361

I've played more than a few games using the EX3 rules, both as player and as ST. I'm not speaking from a position of ignorance or a lack of practical knowledge here; my group's playstyles just make not parallel with your own.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)20:11 UTC+1 No.32959447 Report

>>32959390

Oh, you meant full characters? Yeah, that's just really complicated territory and we're gonna need to get into actual builds to discuss it. I was assuming battlegroups instead. It depends on the weak characters' ability to contribute to combat while staying out of the line of fire. A battle hymnist for instance is a humongous boon that an entire team can build around even if he's kind of shit at attack evasion.

>>32959414
Can you provide a play example, then? Just to see what led you to those conclusions. Note swapping will probably give everybody a better perspective of the game and how it works.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)20:18 UTC+1 No.32959558 Report

>>32959361

The possibility of a fight turning into a debacle isn't a bad thing, but it is a bad thing if it can happen simply because a player or an ST has a concept in mind that isn't supported by the rules.

>>32959447

Most pertinent example that got me to start delving into the problem was when I was a player, Melee Zenith, and we were defending one of our Circlemates' hometowns against a band of mercenaries.

Almost without fail, whatever enemies ended up engaging our weakest member in the fight (Eclipse who wasn't really familiar with the system) would end up the most dangerous opponent.

I ended up taking Favored Lion Stance after that battle because of that, which helps mitigate the problem on the PC end... but it's still there, just costing me motes now.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)20:20 UTC+1 No.32959578 Report

>>32959558

What's with Eclipses always being the weakest combatants? Something about that caste, I swear...

Joking aside though, what happened on that front? Did the Eclipse just not max out any defensive abilities or something? It seems really odd to me that it'd put you in such a bind. Got any idea what her build was like?
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)20:20 UTC+1 No.32959584 Report

So, how high can you get your starting Initiative if you take a bunch of charms related to enhancing your Join Battle roll and quickdrawing your weapon? I want to make a character specced around doing a decisive attack after quickdrawing in the first round - or, at the very slowest, doing a single wither to crash the opponent, and then Decisiving them to death.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)20:21 UTC+1 No.32959604 Report

>>32959578
>What's with Eclipses always being the weakest combatants?
Night gets Dodge, Zenith gets Resistance, Dawn gets EVERYTHING, and Twilights get a temporary force field. Eclipses are the only ones completely shafted on anything approaching combat abilities by default.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)20:26 UTC+1 No.32959673 Report

>>32959584

There's a lot of ways to go about it. The most powerful one is hands down the Melee One Weapon Two Blows Withering>Decisive killshot combo, but it's very unreliable. IIRC, the other big one is Flashing Vengeance Draw plus the Awareness boosters to basically pull out a revolver and go Indiana Jones on a bitch. Those are the ones I know of off the top of my head.

>>32959604

This is true. Kinda wish Eclipses got something to help with their lacking defenses. They don't even have Performance with its dance battling defense booster, chrissakes!
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)20:29 UTC+1 No.32959703 Report

>>32959578

Eclipse wasn't maxed for defense, no, it seemed like it was trying to go for a Jack-of-All-Trades - like I said, the player wasn't familiar with the system. Didn't even have max Dex I swear what the hell Jesse

But *that* joke aside, that's the problem. It shouldn't be an obligation for every character to be forced to have some max defensive abilities for the sake of OTHER people. The fact that they get cut down more easily should be punishment enough. Them getting cut down and MY player potentially paying the price on top of that is too much.

This goes doubly so as an ST. When it was my turn to ST (we had different people switch to ST the same game every session) I had to make sure that no individual enemy was going to be too vulnerable lest it unbalance the fight. STs that aren't savvy enough to realize this is how the system works are going to be miserable.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)20:33 UTC+1 No.32959773 Report

>>32959703

This I agree with. I feel like players should either get a free defensive max-out as a default just so the system math doesn't wonk out, or the system should be more finely tuned so that a low-defense character isn't a liability for the entire group. Having to eat it because the group's Twilight decided to be a sagely booky scholar with Defense 1 is Not Fun (TM). Not fun at all.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)20:38 UTC+1 No.32959863 Report

>>32959773

The best defensive ability in the game is probably Stealth. It is especially powerful when you have a glorious golden distraction that means enemies don't want to waste time looking for you.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)20:39 UTC+1 No.32959885 Report

>>32959863

Hell, I wouldn't be opposed to sidebar that went 'if you really don't want to be in combat at all at least invest in Stealth christ'. Anything that gets noncombatants away from being total liabilities.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)20:41 UTC+1 No.32959917 Report

>>32959885

Whatcha gonna do
whatcha gonna do
whatcha gonna do
when the teacup ninjas you?
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)20:42 UTC+1 No.32959935 Report

>>32959917

This is what I picked Teahouse Shattering Symphony up for!

(Translation: Bust some sick rhymes while we blow up the whole joint in awesome battle. You know you want it, brother.)
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)20:43 UTC+1 No.32959957 Report

>>32959917
Invoke the Koan of Shattered Porcelain and switch to coffee
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)21:21 UTC+1 No.32960520 Report

It seems the most important quibble people have with the system is using weaker enemies as Initiative punching bags, then declining to finish them off with a Decisive Strike (instead saving it to use on a more dangerous foe).

Would it be a better idea, then, to inflict some kind of 'Breakaway' penalty on Initiative if the player elects to stop beating on an opponent before Decisive Striking them?

It fits with the principles of battle momentum, reflecting the difficulty in abruptly changing your battle focus rather than following through. Wouldn't adversely affect any of the Charms printed so far, either, all of the multiple attack Charms are single-target only or decisive-only. Obviously Breakaway penalties would only apply if the player voluntarily elected to change targets, not if the weaker enemy disengaged from their ability to attack entirely.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)21:35 UTC+1 No.32960753 Report

>>32960520
Depends on how the penalty is applied, as even if, say, you halve init, you might still have the punching bag situation.

So what kind of penalty mechanic would prevent this, without making things retarded at the same time?
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)21:36 UTC+1 No.32960788 Report

>>32960520
If you create that mechanic, you have to define what a Target is, you have to add new clauses to the magical flurry attack Charms, and you have to add in new Charms or new effects to existing ones that let Exalts change targets more easily. It's also very genre-savvy to have one powerful fighter taking on multiple enemies at once.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)21:41 UTC+1 No.32960862 Report

>>32960753

Halving total initiative, like you mentioned there, wouldn't eliminate the problem entirely, but it would drastically limit it to a few odd corner cases here and there. The limitations on gaining Initiative once you hit a certain level or have Crashed a weaker opponent I think can do the rest of the legwork.

>>32960788

This wouldn't preclude one powerful fighter taking on many enemies at a time; Breakaway penalization would only come into play if he elected to change targets before using a Decisive Strike. Once you land a Decisive Strike you're free to change targets without penalty.

As for the magical flurries, as I said earlier, I don't think there's a single one so far in the playtest that would be affected. Care to point any out?
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)21:46 UTC+1 No.32960952 Report

>>32960862
If that kind of mechanic were implemented, keeping boss minions as their own entities with their own initiative scores is far stronger than lumping them into a battle group. I don't think this mechanic would solve anything until Charms were rewritten with it in mind.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)21:55 UTC+1 No.32961077 Report

>>32960952

Battle Groups could use with a bit of buffing if this mechanic were to come into play, certainly.

For smaller and more high-impact scenarios, say, a Solar Circle going up against a Dragon-Blooded Sworn Brotherhood, this kind of mechanic would go a long way toward alleviating the problems people have been noticing.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)21:59 UTC+1 No.32961130 Report

>>32961077
And I don't think it will, until all the Charms are rewritten with the knowledge that such a mechanic exists.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)22:02 UTC+1 No.32961171 Report

>>32961130

That's not an argument, that's just a declarative statement. He's presented his reasoning, what's yours?
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)22:08 UTC+1 No.32961251 Report

>>32961235
>>32961235
>>32961235

Page ten again. So migrate when you feel like it.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)22:17 UTC+1 No.32961413 Report

>>32958934
Battle Groups don't build your initiative. And you ARE supposed to put these guys in Battle Groups. If they're really good fighters, then they're a Battle Group with Elite Drill.
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Anonymous 06/23/14(Mon)22:26 UTC+1 No.32961594 Report

>>32957912
It's not that he doesn't understand the problem people have with it, so much as he doesn't see that problem as a problem. In his view, different levels of optimization between characters is a table problem, not a system problem.
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