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/vr/ - Retro Games

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Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)14:00 UTC+1 No.1925409 Report

I want a game with a world you can get lost in.

Give me your best
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)14:03 UTC+1 No.1925415 Report

Does it have to be huge or just heavily atmospheric?
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)14:03 UTC+1 No.1925417 Report

Might just be my shitty bearings, but I got lost in this game plenty of times.
Ended up drawing maps whenever I'd start a new game.
>>
noko 09/09/14(Tue)14:04 UTC+1 No.1925418 Report

Baldurs Gate 2
Super Metroid
Chrono Trigger
Castlevania Symphony of the Night
Every Zelda
Demon's Crest
Cave Story

Not /vr/ games
Shadow of the Colossus
Ico
Silent Hill 2
Psychonauts
Fallout 3 + New Vegas
Batman Arkham Asylum
Fez
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)14:18 UTC+1 No.1925440 Report

>>1925415
Either is fine.
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)14:22 UTC+1 No.1925443 Report

>>1925417
I popped open the clamshell to this last month and all of my homemade maps tumbled out. Right in the feels.
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)14:36 UTC+1 No.1925461 Report

Blade of Destiny
Star Trail
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)14:40 UTC+1 No.1925470 Report

>psychedelic / mysterious
Eastern Mind
LSD: Dream Emulator
Gadget: Past as Future
The Residents' Bad Day on the Midway
Bad Mojo

>dread / sorrow
Dogday
Pathologic
Echo Night
The Dark Eye

>blue skies / nostalgic
Boku No Natsuyasumi
EarthBound
Mega Man Legends
Quiz Nanairo Dreams
Shenmue
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)15:20 UTC+1 No.1925509 Report

Gonna have to go with FFVII and FFVIII. Those worlds are huge. Some of the biggest I've ever explored on a home console game. When they first came out there was nothing quite like it at the time.

I've read "I remember the first time I left Midgar..." so many times in various posts on the internet. And it's totally true, you never do forget. It's a pretty huge map.
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)15:39 UTC+1 No.1925534 Report

>>1925509
>Gonna have to go with FFVII and FFVIII. Those worlds are huge. Some of the biggest I've ever explored on a home console game.
You really should play more home console games. Even Chrono Trigger is bigger than, like, both of these combined. And I'm not even talking about Dragon Quest VI, which consists of two different overworlds, each with an underwater world spanning all of the sea tiles. Or the giant Dragon Quest 3 worlds.
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)16:00 UTC+1 No.1925559 Report

Exile III: Ruined World
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)16:02 UTC+1 No.1925565 Report

Myst, Riven
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)16:06 UTC+1 No.1925569 Report

>>1925418
>Chrono Trigger
This.
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)16:06 UTC+1 No.1925570 Report

>>1925418
>Not /vr/ games
>>>/v/
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)16:22 UTC+1 No.1925597 Report

>>1925559
This.

If there was ever a great example of an actual open-world semi-sandbox CRPG, Exile III is it.
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)16:25 UTC+1 No.1925607 Report

>>1925559
>>1925597
Exile III is almost overwhelming in how huge it is
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)16:33 UTC+1 No.1925620 Report

>>1925418
Cave Story needs to be under "not retro." It came out in 2004.
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)16:54 UTC+1 No.1925652 Report

Chrono Trigger is my favorite game on the SNES but the map isn't really that big. it's cool that there are different version of the same world but you can see everything rather quickly.
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)16:57 UTC+1 No.1925654 Report

>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)17:04 UTC+1 No.1925664 Report

>>1925534
Not him but chrono trigger definitely doesn't feel the same. It's a different type of expansive with the different time realms.
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)17:27 UTC+1 No.1925698 Report

>>1925654
I love this game but I've never come anywhere close to beating it. Dungeons are 2spooky.
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)18:14 UTC+1 No.1925765 Report

>>1925409
Daggerfall
Ultima
Unreal
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)18:15 UTC+1 No.1925769 Report

>>1925765
And by Unreal I mean the two ones.
And by that I mean the Amiga Version and the game made by Epic.
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)18:23 UTC+1 No.1925779 Report

Grand Theft Auto 1 and 2 are available gratis from Rockstar's website, and GOG occasionally gives away the retro Fallout games.

Or you could just pirate them, idc
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)18:28 UTC+1 No.1925785 Report

Daggerfall
You can get lost forever in the dungeons.
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)18:42 UTC+1 No.1925802 Report

If you want to get literally lost try playing pic related without any maps or guides.
If you want to get lost in comfy fantasy world try Legend of Mana.
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)18:55 UTC+1 No.1925819 Report

The king's field games if you can deal with vomitive perspective and movement combined with atrocious framerates, I'm not trying to diss the games, they're really atmospheric and immersive but god damn if i cant play for more than 20 minutes
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)19:09 UTC+1 No.1925845 Report

Oddworld Stranger's Wrath.

The atmosphere in this game is incredible. Feels like you're really there.
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)19:13 UTC+1 No.1925852 Report

>>1925802
>Legend of Mana
God-awful gameplay mechanics a tad immersion-breaking, though. I mean, even for late Square, this was just too badly designed.
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)19:17 UTC+1 No.1925858 Report

>>1925607

Lots of side quests and side-dungeons too.

Towns get destroyed and NPCs get killed if you don't deal with the main quests quickly enough. You can even get a game over if you sit on your ass and don't deal with another one.
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)19:36 UTC+1 No.1925895 Report

>>1925418
>>1925534

>Chrono Trigger

Kek. CT has one of the smallest worlds with the least to explore of all JRPGs. I'd place Mario RPG above this.
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)19:57 UTC+1 No.1925941 Report

>>1925895
SMRPG doesn't even have an open world. The map is basically just a level selector, the same as SMB3 or SMW.
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)19:59 UTC+1 No.1925945 Report

>>1925895
>CT has one of the smallest worlds with the least to explore of all JRPGs.
It also happened to have had five of them.
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)21:14 UTC+1 No.1926117 Report

>>1925409
ctrl-f gothic
0 results

well, i recommend gothic
>>
noko 09/09/14(Tue)21:20 UTC+1 No.1926128 Report

Herc's Adventure on PS1. It's actually open world with great art design.
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)21:35 UTC+1 No.1926162 Report

Rings of Power for the MD (or Genesis of your US) huge map, you needed coordinates to get around.
>>
Anonymous 09/09/14(Tue)21:53 UTC+1 No.1926207 Report

>>1925785
Yeah, that's true. Daggerfall is a "game you can get lost in" in the figurative sense... until you go dungeon crawling, then it's a game you can get lost in in the literal sense.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)00:56 UTC+1 No.1926596 Report

>>1925945
This was keeping that in mind.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)01:46 UTC+1 No.1926730 Report

>>1926128
Really wish this game was acknowledged more often as the impressive technical achievement it was. It was one of the first games I ever saw in which the ENTIRE game world including towns and dungeons was one single massive "map", without any screen transitions or load waiting times (except for the transition to the Underworld when you died or at the endgame). Plus, the two-player mode was lots of fun.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)01:57 UTC+1 No.1926760 Report

This game right here.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)02:05 UTC+1 No.1926785 Report

I find myself getting easily lost in the harvest moon games. Not physically lost, but lost like I can't put down the controller and just forget that the outside world exists for a bit.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)03:18 UTC+1 No.1926969 Report

>>1925418
>playing zelda
are you a gamer girl?
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)03:24 UTC+1 No.1926986 Report

>>1926969
Why is the Zelda=Girl Gamer meme a thing again? Is it because the games are 'mainstream'?
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)04:45 UTC+1 No.1927169 Report

>>1925409
Terranigma and Dragon Quest III.

I just love exploring a fictional version of our world map.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)04:54 UTC+1 No.1927197 Report

>>1925534
Definitely the most ridiculous thing I've read on /vr/ that I can think of off the top of my head
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)07:35 UTC+1 No.1927589 Report

:) Earthworm Jim
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)07:39 UTC+1 No.1927601 Report

>>1927589

:)
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)08:57 UTC+1 No.1927705 Report

>>1926117

This

Also, Poles and Germans made a fuckload of mods for Gothic. Some are short adventures, other are as big as the Night of the Raven for G2 and pretty good too. You can also find graphical makeovers pretty easily.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)10:09 UTC+1 No.1927785 Report

best thread on /vr/. needs more suggestions.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)10:30 UTC+1 No.1927813 Report

>>1927197
Please quit shitposting.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)11:18 UTC+1 No.1927853 Report

>>1927813
epic :)
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)13:39 UTC+1 No.1928007 Report

>>1927705

I've heard in the past that there are a few bugs that can prevent you from progressing and also that the combat is rather laboured and clunky.

Would you generally agree with that? I've always hesitated to play it after hearing that, but I never previously considered mods.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)14:01 UTC+1 No.1928037 Report

>>1928007

Piranha Bytes is famous for bugs in their games, but they were always either quickly fixed (with one exception, see below) or more of the "holy shit, why does this game lags on my PC?" variety.

The only bug that can possibly cause you problems is the fact that if you don't ask certain person to get you somewhere (Lares in G2) before you ask him to get you somewhere else you'll lock yourself out of one of the main quests. Everything else works as it should.

The problem with combat you might have heard about is actually comprised of two smaller problems. First of all, the controls are weird. Especially in the first part which you absolutely should start your Gothic adventure with. They work well, but first you need to get used to attacking while holding ctrl, the way equiping weapons works etc. It annoyed me for five minutes or so, but then I slowly got used to it. And I ended up actually liking it - when G2 was out I played it using "old" controls, without touching my mouse.

The other thing is that fighting animations and "feel" of combat feel horrible at first. You have three different attacks (which you may make into combos) and block, but main hero holds even the smallest dagger two-handed and takes some serious time to actually strike with anything two-handed. The thing is that was probably intended - as you level up and choose to learn how to fight animations become smoother, faster and generally cooler. Also your crit chance grows.

Bows, crossbows and magic have this little problem of being of auto-aim varirty and it takes a bit of practice to switch between tactics in heat of battle.

Nevertheless Gothic series has some of the most wonderful world- and mapbuilding. You should definitely check it out. I'd advise against using any "big" mods during your first playthrough although cosmetic ones are fair game,
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)14:11 UTC+1 No.1928049 Report

>>1928037

Thank you for the detailed post, I must admit it still doesn't sound too appealing but you obviously feel strongly about the series so I'd be happy to give it a whirl and stick it out for a bit.

If I make any significant progress and the thread is still up I'll post back, might even make a Gothic thread if the game takes my interest.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)14:12 UTC+1 No.1928051 Report

>>1925418
>Not /vr/ games
pls go or use spoilers.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)14:15 UTC+1 No.1928056 Report

>>1927813
Equating a difference of opinion with shit posting is more of a /v/ thing. Perhaps you could return there and never post here again
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)14:19 UTC+1 No.1928064 Report

>>1928049

Great! If you get any questions - shoot. I'll check for questions/ Gothic generals later
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)15:01 UTC+1 No.1928123 Report

"Lost" figuratively and literally...

Obvious ones:
Fallout 1 & 2, Final Fantasy IV, VI, VII & VIII Torment, Icewind Dale 1 & 2.

Not so obvious:
Solar Winds 1 & 2
Mech Warrior (original mech sim)
Battle Tech: Crescent Hawk's Inception
Battle Tech: Crescent Hawk's Revenge
Alundra
FOnline2 (Fallout online; same map, new stuff)
AoP Online (Fallout online; new map)
Wasteland
Bard's Tale
Vengeance of Excalibur
Conquests of the Longbow: Robin Hood : )
Burn Time (Fun but almost no story)
Kings Quest V
AD&D Pool of Radiance (among others)
Syberia 1 & 2
Alien Logic (If you can get it to work)
Ascendancy (strategy but very addicting)
Original Dune game
Eye of the Beholder series
Kyrandia Trilogy
The Black Cauldron (great adventure game)
Manhunter 1 & 2
Quest for Glory series
Wolfenstein3D (first 6 episodes by ID)
Original Doom episodes
Nightmare on Elmstreet (original)
Day of the Tentacle

And last but certainly not least:
Arcanum
Silver
Anachronox
Beyond Good and Evil
Space Quest games
Blade Runner
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)15:09 UTC+1 No.1928132 Report

>>1928056
He did not manage to produce an opinion, he just randomly badmouthed someone without trying to explain himself. Which constitutes shitposting.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)15:18 UTC+1 No.1928140 Report

Also, Grandia (Playstation) and Grandia II (Dreamcast was the best), Fester's Quest, Blaster Master, Star Tropics, Equinox, and the Wizardry series.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)15:23 UTC+1 No.1928148 Report

>>1928132
Anyone familiar with FF7 and 8 and Chrono Trigger can tell you how ridiculous it is to say that CT is larger than 7 and 8 combined. This is like saying your car is bigger than two busses combined.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)15:30 UTC+1 No.1928158 Report

>>1928148
Thank you. I originally said that FFVII and FFVIII has massive maps and someone quickly pointed out that Chrono Trigger had a bigger one that both of those games combined. LMAOOOO SMH. Really? It takes me quite a while to traverse FFVIII's map. The cities are bigger than the ones in CT. I can explore all of the different maps in CT in a minute or so once I get the Epoch.

tl;dr - CT's map is NOT bigger than FFVII and FFVIII combined. CT's map is one of the smallest in ANY RPG. It's just incredibly well done and detailed.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)15:37 UTC+1 No.1928168 Report

>>1928148

It's DEFINETLY not bigger than both, he's baiting.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)15:38 UTC+1 No.1928172 Report

>ctrl+f
>gothic

no resul..OH WAIT

>>1926117 saved the day
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)15:51 UTC+1 No.1928190 Report

>>1928168
I'd doubt that it's larger than even one disc's worth of content from either game.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)15:54 UTC+1 No.1928193 Report

>>1925534

chrono trigger? nigga please. i love that game to death but there's literally like ~10 visitable locations on the map. yes there are different "times" but the vast majority of each map is empty. even as a kid i remember being disappointed i couldnt visit the random floating islands in zeal for example. more importantly, there is practically ZERO reason to re-visit almost every area in the game. at least in FF7 there's a bunch of reasons to go back to most locations.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)16:03 UTC+1 No.1928204 Report

>>1928193
>chrono trigger? nigga please.
FFVII? Nigga, even more please. That's the point. The game was tiny.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)16:09 UTC+1 No.1928213 Report

>>1928204
Tiny? There sure was a LOT of fucking places to visit. More than CT, that's for sure.

Every town is bigger in FFVII that CT.

The world map is bigger.

Once you get the airship in FFVII you can see how big the world really is.

Once you get the Epoch in CT you can see how small the world is. You can fly around it in less than 10 seconds.

It's stupid to think that CT has a big map. It doesn't. Sure there are variations because of the different times. If you were to walk FFVII's map on foot it would take forever. Even more so with FFVIII, that map is fucking huge.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)16:19 UTC+1 No.1928225 Report

>>1928213
>The world map is bigger.
No, it isn't. If you combine all five maps of CT, the overall space is much larger and much more densely populated.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)16:23 UTC+1 No.1928232 Report

>>1928225
Ok, he's trolling. Nobody can be this retarded at spatial relations.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)16:41 UTC+1 No.1928251 Report

>>1928225
Are you fucking serious? Most of the maps of CT aren't even explorable. More than half of every map of ever time era is mostly ocean.

Sorry but you are fucking wrong. CT's map(s) are NOT bigger than FFVII and they sure are not as big as FFVIII. I know that no one likes to be wrong but in this case you are.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)17:14 UTC+1 No.1928301 Report

i played chrono cross before i ever played chrono trigger and i find it to be much more immersive and involving than its predecessor you wanna fight about it
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)17:16 UTC+1 No.1928308 Report

>>1925417
>>1925443

Dooooods. Fucking Shining in the Darkness. The whole Shining series is amazing. Thank you for sharing this moment.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)17:39 UTC+1 No.1928360 Report

>>1925769
But wait, Unreal on Amiga (by Ubi Soft, 1990) was a fantasy-themed side-scroller with some 3D dragon flying sequences. Great game at the time, and I used to boot it up sometimes just for the intro music/graphics, but there's not a huge game world to get lost in.

For actual Amiga RPGs, check out the Dragonflight / Amberstar / Ambermoon series by Thalion. That'll keep ya busy for some months...

Or for more dungeon-crawling focus: Black Crypt, Crystal Dragon, Dungeon Master + Chaos Strikes Back.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)18:44 UTC+1 No.1928461 Report

>>1928204

what? the post i replied to said, ad verbatim:

>You really should play more home console games. Even Chrono Trigger is bigger than, like, both of these combined
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)18:46 UTC+1 No.1928471 Report

>>1928225

just because they have more pixels doesnt mean the world is bigger. most of those maps are not explorable, they only have a small hadnful of places you can visit, and almost none of them are worth revisiting.

in contrast to FF7, where there are visitable places in most nooks and crannies, and most areas of something worth checking out even after you've been there once.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)18:51 UTC+1 No.1928482 Report

>>1928461
Yes. I didn't say CT was giant, all I said was that it was bigger than FFVII, which it was.

DQ6 was giant for a JRPG.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)18:52 UTC+1 No.1928489 Report

>>1928471
>just because they have more pixels doesnt mean the world is bigger
Similarly, just because there's an empty field that takes time to walk over doesn't mean the map's big. FFVII is tiny if you count the actual content of its map. Or, if you count the time it takes to walk across it, then the original Dragon Quest is, like, the biggest JRPG ever.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)18:58 UTC+1 No.1928496 Report

>>1928489
Holy shit, I am sorry for your parents.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)19:03 UTC+1 No.1928509 Report

>>1928496
Doubt your parents would be proud of you and shitposting if they aren't already ashamed of you
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)19:06 UTC+1 No.1928516 Report

>>1928360
Amberstar, awesome. I had it on the Atari ST. A poor RPG from the ST/Amiga era was Kayden Garth. Big maps, I don't recommend playing it though.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)19:21 UTC+1 No.1928549 Report

>>1928509
Are you serious? You've been shitposting this entire thread with the phrase "CT map is larger than FFVII and FFVIII".
This is a lie and you know it, why do you stand so firm on it.

Also, my parents aren't ashamed, they can't even work the internet.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)19:41 UTC+1 No.1928593 Report

>>1928489
Chrono Trigger is very small compared to Final Fantasy VI, VII or VIII.

It only seems larger to you because of the way the world map is structured and how tiny the sprites on the map are. The town you start in, Medina, and all the towns aside from the three in Zeal or the Present and Future Castle are smaller than the smallest town in any of the other games. The only reason it seems otherwise is because the tiny houses and shops in the present/past/stone age are all in their own areas(that are just one screen).
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)19:48 UTC+1 No.1928614 Report

>>1928496
He makes a valid point. Most retro games with "big maps" have a lot of empty space and recycled assets whose only purpose is to make the world seem bigger than it really is. Daggerfall is like the definitive example of this.

Also, the "lol ur parents must b prd XD" jab makes you sound like some dudebro XBox Live user.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)19:51 UTC+1 No.1928618 Report

>>1928614
He said CT is larger mapwise than FF7&8. That is not a good point, because it's entirely false.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)19:54 UTC+1 No.1928625 Report

>>1928618
CT is larger than FFVII, period. FFVII has a moderately spacious empty overland and what, 7-8 small towns? A couple of screens each. CT is 5 entirely different maps quite packed with content.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)19:55 UTC+1 No.1928635 Report

>>1928625
>7-8 small towns?

>Midgar
>Kalm
>Junon
>Wutai
>Nibelheim
>Costa Del Sol
>small

Even Nibelheim is bigger than most towns in CT, and that's supposed to be a rustic little mountain town.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)19:57 UTC+1 No.1928637 Report

>>1928625
Did you and I play the same games?

CT places that are visitable do not have much content in them town wise and essentially are a dungeon most times. FF7 has visitable places and areas that serve as passageways where there will only be battles. CT in no way has more content. I like the game but this is pants on head retarded.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)20:01 UTC+1 No.1928654 Report

>>1928618
>That is not a good point, because it's entirely false.

That doesn't justify /v/-tier "lel ur prants must b prd XDXDDDDD" shitposting.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)20:02 UTC+1 No.1928660 Report

>>1928654
>completely missing the thread
If you shitpost the whole thread like he did, I'm going to shitpost back after the twelfth time.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)20:57 UTC+1 No.1928849 Report

I love CT as much as the next person but it's not a big game. There are a few places to go in each time era.

Look at this map of FFVIII. Every place listed here is bigger and more intricate than any map or location in CT.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)22:25 UTC+1 No.1929075 Report

>>1927813
>>1928132
Please quit shitposting.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)22:27 UTC+1 No.1929083 Report

>"Shitpost" has become a generic byword for "x post I don't like"

God, this board is getting more and more like Reddit by the day.

It was good while it lasted.
>>
Anonymous 09/10/14(Wed)23:26 UTC+1 No.1929262 Report

>>1925409
I would recomend fable lost chapters or 2, although I'm not sure they count as retro really
>>
Anonymous 09/11/14(Thu)13:17 UTC+1 No.1930339 Report

>>1926760
Seconding this. I spent a lot of time just wandering around the many different dungeons and worlds of this game. Except for Lute's storyline, of course.
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