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File: saturn_mk1.jpg-(2 MB, 3980x2280)
Why was the Sega Saturn...
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)09:37 UTC+1 No.1788690 Report

Why was the Sega Saturn hardware such an all-round disaster? It's like they couldn't fuck up more if they tried. Thank goodness the games are so amazing but the hardware itself must have bitterly disappointed some people.

This isn't a console war thread, but a hardware discussion thread. In my mind there is absolutely no doubt that the Sega Saturn is a worthwhile system because the games (when imports are included) are just that good.

>Can only match the original Playstation in 3D polygon rendering when at 100% system utilization (when SH1+SH2+VDP1+VDP2 are in perfect sync).
>Worse fill rate than the original Playstation full stop
>No built in MPEG decompression (FMVs look much worse) unlike the original Playstation
>A built in memory card that relies on watch batteries to function (which wipe game saves when dead)
>Transparencies don't work properly because of a pixel overdraw bug inherent in the rendering hardware

And on top of that
>More expensive than the Playstation
>MUCH harder to develop games for

It was rough being a Saturn owner. Very rough. Once again, at least the games delivered a lot of satisfaction.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)09:43 UTC+1 No.1788705 Report

>>1788690
saturn had less good games than n64
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)09:44 UTC+1 No.1788709 Report

>>1788705
Not when you include imports as mentioned in the OP.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)09:59 UTC+1 No.1788724 Report

>>1788690
>>Can only match the original Playstation in 3D polygon rendering when at 100% system utilization

they where never planning too from the start. saturn was gonna be yet another 2D system but had to mod it later to do 3D

If you actually compare the 2D games shared on the systems Saturn wins so hard it's not even funny

>>Worse fill rate than the original Playstation full stop

go play X-men vs Street fighter on both then come back

>>A built in memory card that relies on watch batteries to function (which wipe game saves when dead)

see that slot in the back. It's not for your penis. and those batteries last a long time
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)10:10 UTC+1 No.1788734 Report

>>1788690
Its controller had the best D-pad though
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)10:13 UTC+1 No.1788737 Report

>Designed to be another 2D system
Is that true? Was the Genesis with 32X and the Sega-CD add on not enough for them?

Its a fucking miracle they made the Saturn, let alone the Dreamcast.

Who the fuck was in charge of these decisions.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)10:20 UTC+1 No.1788741 Report

>>1788724
>go play X-men vs Street fighter on both then come back
Doesn't have too much with fill rate sadly. More to do with the Saturn having a lot more RAM with the expansion module.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)10:22 UTC+1 No.1788743 Report

>>1788709
Too bad I can't read moon.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)10:50 UTC+1 No.1788773 Report
File: top291.jpg-(91x125)
Saturn was a 2D powerhouse and...
Saturn was a 2D powerhouse and proved it with its library of arcade perfect (or close) fighters and gorgeous shmups.

>A built in memory card that relies on watch batteries to function (which wipe game saves when dead)

I never knew about this though. Is that why it didn't get as many rpg's? Would've loved seeing games like BoF4, SoTN, and other sprite-heavy PS1 games on it.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)11:02 UTC+1 No.1788780 Report

>>1788773
Don't think that as the case. You could just get a regular memory card for the Saturn that wasn't battery powered. But of course that was optional, unlike on Playstation.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)11:47 UTC+1 No.1788818 Report

>>1788705
3D Fighters:
Virtua Fighter 2
Last Bronx
Fighting Vipers
Fighters Megamix
Virtua On

2D fighters:
Darkstalkers
Alpha 2
X-men Children of the Atom
Marvel Super Heroes

Lightgun:
Virtua Cop 1 & 2
House of the Dead

RPG/Strat:
Shining Force III
Albert Odyssey (if this had been released on a different console it would be considered one of the greatest classic RPG's of all time)
Panzer Dragoon Saga
Dragon Force

FPS:
A fucking ONLINE and excellent port of Duke Nukem 3D (N64 had a port but no online).
Powerslave.

Racing:
Sega Rally

Puzzle:
Online Saturn Bomberman.

Beat'em up:
Die Hard Arcade
Guardian Heroes

Shooter:
Darius Gaiden
Galactic Attack/RayForce
Panzer Dragoon Zwei

Turn based strategy:
Iron Storm (widely regarded by the turn based community as one of the greatest turn based strategy games ever brought to a console).

The list above is just off the top of my head and is only comprised of U.S. releases. As someone who owned all three consoles in their heyday the U.S. Saturn library complete shit on the N64. The N64 has a handful of amazing games but outside of that it had the worst library of any widely selling console in history.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)12:02 UTC+1 No.1788832 Report

>>1788773
Did you have a stroke and forget SOTN was released on saturn and had more shit, an extra area and you could play as Maria?
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)12:02 UTC+1 No.1788834 Report

>>1788832
>Did you have a stroke and forget SOTN was released on saturn and had more shit, an extra area and you could play as Maria?

And that it was a terrible port of a PS1 masterpiece?
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)12:06 UTC+1 No.1788839 Report

>>1788724
>see that slot in the back. It's not for your penis.
I've been using my saturn all wrong...
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)12:10 UTC+1 No.1788845 Report

>>1788773
>Is that why it didn't get as many rpg's?
Saturn had a ton of RPGs. The complaint about the internal backup is really just grasping for anything to complain about, like another poster said, those batteries last a long time, and there were dedicated backup carts anyway.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)12:14 UTC+1 No.1788850 Report

>>1788845
>those batteries last a long time
http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?9053-Sega-Saturn-long-life-battery

>B. Store or name brand.
>Think of this as a standard replacement.
>This would give a life of about ninteen days unplugged.

Hope your Saturn is plugged in, bro.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)12:15 UTC+1 No.1788851 Report

>>1788834
Gotta love internet hyperbole where if it isn't exactly the same it is "terrible".

If the PS1 game was a 10/10 the Saturn version would be an 8/10.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)12:20 UTC+1 No.1788858 Report

>>1788834
It was a terrible port because Konami were lazy pieces of shit and didn't even attempt to properly port it.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)12:30 UTC+1 No.1788873 Report

>>1788851
>internet hyperbole if it isn't exactly the same it is "terrible"
>frame rate issues
>worse sound
>attrocious voice acting
>crappier Richter sprite

Granted, Maria is an interesting change of pace, but the extra areas and enemies aren't enough to justify playing the superior PS1 version, that looks, sounds, and plays better.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)12:46 UTC+1 No.1788882 Report

>>1788858

>but but but

its a shit console abomination bro. im sorry.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)12:47 UTC+1 No.1788883 Report

>>1788882
Uh, Saturn's hardware was practically designed for games like SoTN, with 2D combined with 3D.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)12:49 UTC+1 No.1788890 Report

>>1788873
Yep I already know this but you're still an autistic tard if you think the Saturn version is "terrible".

Worse? Yes.

Terrible? Nope.

Not to mention SOTN is baby's first Castlevania anyway and is basically devoid of challenge thus making the majority of the game pointless filler. Sadly this is what most people think makes it a "masterpiece".
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)12:50 UTC+1 No.1788891 Report

>>1788890
Your post calling someone autistic and that final line confirming your own autism is fucking hilarious.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)12:52 UTC+1 No.1788894 Report

>>1788891
Autism = not enjoying easy as fuck games as much as the more challenging ones?
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)13:01 UTC+1 No.1788913 Report

>>1788883
SotN is almost entirely 3D, and it's a bad port. If it had been made as a proper sprite-based 2D game, then it would have SOARED on the Saturn, but NO, it had to be some crazy-ass "let's use textures on polygons as sprites" mess.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)14:07 UTC+1 No.1788972 Report

>>1788690

Sega's bet was 2D was going to stay predominant and Nintendo's Project Reality was going to be years off. So they made a system that was a 2D powerhouse and could do some 3D with some trickery with a dual CPU setup and used the popular and cheap ST-V board as a basis.

You also have to remember that the Sega "Model" Arcade Board series was genuinely using Military Grade computer hardware from Fujitsu and Lockheed Martin as well. So replicating that hardware was utterly out of the question

At that time, Playstation was also looking to be yet another also ran with the 3DO and Jaguar. Sega felt invincible having the market to themselves, Of course, "The Price Heard Around The World" happened. Then Nintendo had to delay the N64 and remove a lot of capability from it like FMV because they were going to use size limited carts and people were either ready to move on to the PS1 or stuck to the SNES because Rare shot new life into it with DKC and it had an unmissable line up till the Ultra 64 launched.

It was a combination of their own hubris plus the market fucking them over. Why would you buy a Saturn when the SNES could do Donkey Kong Country (And later did Mario RPG and Street Fighter Alpha 2) and if you wanted 3D. You could go playstation instead. 30FPS be damned.

Oh and Sega's marketing was hilariously shitty as well. They tried pointing to their 3D games which looked ugly as Sin when they could have easily advertised "We're the only place you can get arcade perfect versions of every Arcade game you love". Ever see that Mortal Kombat 2 port? Outside of some load times. Perfect. Even better than the arcade with the Saturn's enhanced audio, even.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)19:47 UTC+1 No.1789593 Report

>>1788737
SOJ
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)19:54 UTC+1 No.1789609 Report

>>1788690
It was a disaster because SoJ were incompetent fucks.

>Worse fill rate than the original Playstation full stop

Not true. VDP2 makes up for shit ton of the VDP1 deficiency. All the best looking Saturn games took advantage of that to do shit the Playstation couldn't (or could do at like 10fps). Burning Rangers had perspective correct transparent polygons, Sonic R did water reflections and fogging, Radiant Silvergun had super crazy backgrounds nonstop.

Just the "infinite horizon" type of backgrounds on RSG would've took a shitload of extra polys to do on the Playstation, and would had to be scaled back a lot. Thunder Force V is a good example of that, since it used that effect on Saturn and had to be replaced with polys on Playstation.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)20:00 UTC+1 No.1789616 Report

>>1788883
>Uh, Saturn's hardware was practically designed for games like SoTN, with 2D combined with 3D.

SOTN was designed specifically for the Playstations framebuffer based polygon setup however. It did effects which took advantage precisely of what the hardware could do over the competition. Like the Dracula transformation in the start.

The Saturn port could've looked MUCH better though, they use the VDP2 in a ridiculous stupid manner. Like, it is drawing the backgrounds on plane 2-3 which is limited to 256 colours and no zoom, and reserves planes 0-1 (which had zoom, 16.7million colours and bitmap support) for the one colour + gradient the pause option menu uses.

Hell, the title screen uses TWO of the lowest colour VDP2 planes to display a single fucking background bitmap.

It's like, everything that could be done wrong, they did wrong.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)20:07 UTC+1 No.1789627 Report

>>1788913
>SotN is almost entirely 3D, and it's a bad port. If it had been made as a proper sprite-based 2D game, then it would have SOARED on the Saturn, but NO, it had to be some crazy-ass "let's use textures on polygons as sprites" mess.

SOTN is mostly 2d with the exception of a few effects. Yes, on the Playstation this meant drawing a lot of flat polygons, but all 3d games on the Playstation had nothing but flat polygons - it used affine mapping to transform a 3d scene into a 2d triangle plotter (it also had dedicated hardware for that, which is half the reason it was faster than the Saturn).

The Saturn version DOES use the VDP2 for a lot of backgrounds, but they do so in a completely moronic way. That is the reason why it looks crap.

The Saturn and Playstation were much more alike than you think by the way. As far as polygon rendering goes.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)20:10 UTC+1 No.1789639 Report

>>1788705
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, nice joke anon
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)20:23 UTC+1 No.1789667 Report

>>1788705
bait or idiot
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)21:10 UTC+1 No.1789827 Report

>>1789609
Wasn't there originally going to be a Playstation port of RSG like with Sillhouette Mirage but Treasure decided against it because it would be impossible without significant graphical downgrades?
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)21:25 UTC+1 No.1789861 Report

>>1788690
>all-round disaster

Stopped reading there.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)21:30 UTC+1 No.1789868 Report

>>1789861
Let's take a look at the console sales, yes?

Sony Playstation: 102.49 million
Nintendo 64: 32.93 million
Sega Saturn: 9.5 million
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)21:35 UTC+1 No.1789883 Report

>>1789868
> Nintendo NES: 61.91 million units sold.
> Dreamcast: 10.6 million units sold.

Even the old and clunky NES sold better than the Saturn and Dreamcast combined.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)21:39 UTC+1 No.1789890 Report

>>1789868
>>1789883
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)21:43 UTC+1 No.1789908 Report

>>1789868
>>1789883
Those numbers only matter if you happen to be the CEO of Sega. Neither you, nor anybody else in this thread, actually give a shit about total number of consoles sold. It is a non-issue for you. You're consumers and video game players.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)21:44 UTC+1 No.1789910 Report
File: SGGG.jpg-(125x41)
>>1789883
>>1789883
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)21:53 UTC+1 No.1789930 Report

>>1788972
>used the popular and cheap ST-V board as a basis
Bullshit. ST-V was based on the Saturn, and the board was never really popular.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)21:59 UTC+1 No.1789939 Report

>>1788743
Who cares RPGs aren't that great anyway. The best games don't require moon.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)22:01 UTC+1 No.1789947 Report

>>1789890
> Game Boy: approx. 118.69 million units sold.

> Sega Genesis/Mega Drive: aprox. 40 million units sold
> Master System: approx. 13 million units sold
> Game Gear: approx. 11 million units sold
> Sega Saturn: approx. 9.5 million units sold
> Sega Dreamcast: approx 10.6 million units sold

The Game Boy (all models) alone sold moe than all of Sega's combined consoles.(All modeles too)
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)22:03 UTC+1 No.1789954 Report

>>1789947
And what do you conclude from this?
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)22:06 UTC+1 No.1789964 Report

>>1789908
Damage control ensues.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)22:07 UTC+1 No.1789967 Report

>>1789954
That Sega's marketing section was directed by autistic assholes.

They had great stuff to sell, but they sold it like shit.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)22:12 UTC+1 No.1789983 Report

>>1789947
You can't compare a cheap handheld to a home console. Handhelds are always going to sell more just because they are cheaper and the games are cheaper.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)22:12 UTC+1 No.1789984 Report

>>1788972
>Sega's bet was 2D was going to stay predominant and Nintendo's Project Reality was going to be years off. So they made a system that was a 2D powerhouse and could do some 3D with some trickery with a dual CPU setup and used the popular and cheap ST-V board as a basis.

bullshit.

Saturn was a kneejerk one-up to the SNES-CD which -at that point- was meant to include FX-chip like coprocessor. The only known fact we have about its pre-redesign phase is that it used a NEC V60 cpu, could display 16.7million colours, had transparency, and ran at 27mhz (probably more like 26.8 though).

Then two things happened.
1. Model1-2 got popular, so the new machine had to run Virtua Fighter and Daytona at launch, and
2. Hirokazu Yasuhara saw the Playstation specs and threw a shit fit.

Then they redesigned it around 2xSH2.
It is UNKNOWN how much else was changed however - for all we know, everything else may have stayed the same, since the VDP1 was already very powerful for its time (1993). All the other known claims (24bit colour, transparency, etc) are also present in the final Saturn.

Sega launched a paradigm shift in the industry themselves, and it bit them in the ass (the Playstation was specifically designed to be able to play Virtua Fighter at your home, the design team specifically said so).

And the ST-V was neither popular nor cheap. It was cheaper than the Model 2 but I don't think it was EVER as popular either - then again, Model 2 was iirc the highest grossing arcade platform of all time.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)22:19 UTC+1 No.1790000 Report

>>1789827
>Wasn't there originally going to be a Playstation port of RSG like with Sillhouette Mirage but Treasure decided against it because it would be impossible without significant graphical downgrades?

True.
RSG practically cycles through nearly every effect the VDP2 can do with backgrounds. And then some.

It MAY be possible on the Playstation, but they'd have to remove shit tons of special effects and maybe even need to do per-level loading.

>>1789954
>And what do you conclude from this?

That the only time Sega was ever good was when Tom Kalinske was at the helm.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)22:34 UTC+1 No.1790032 Report

also they fucked themselves when it came to retail. That whole same day release pissed off all their retailers and the price was too high from what playstation showed off what it could do.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)22:37 UTC+1 No.1790035 Report

also the only reason why the saturn had any legs in Japan was that it had a lot of of VN games that were not censored and it was cheaper than getting a pc that could play the same VN's.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)22:38 UTC+1 No.1790039 Report
File: RSG1.jpg-(125x93)
>>1789984The ST-V was...
>>1789984
The ST-V was made so developers could develop games for both the home and arcade market without needing to do any porting. It wasn't really a failure, but it never caught on either. It did give developers in Japan an extra incentive to develop on Saturn instead of Playstation though.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)22:40 UTC+1 No.1790041 Report

>>1790039
tfw rumors that the cart slot on the saturn was planned to have ST-V like carts.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)22:41 UTC+1 No.1790046 Report

>>1789983
The Game Boy sold ten times more than the Game Gear and 24 years later the consoles still work just fine while Game Gears's resistors used to fuckoff and die after one or two years of use.

Feel free to move the goalposts again anytime.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)22:43 UTC+1 No.1790050 Report

>>1790046
That is just nintendo doing what they do best. Take cheap proven hardware and making a product that lasts.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)22:44 UTC+1 No.1790056 Report

>>1790046
I'm not moving the goalposts I'm not even the guy you were arguing with. You're just a fucking idiot for trying to compare a handheld with a console. ALSO it wasn't just the game gears CAPACITORS that failed it was any electronics using those parts at that time. The entire industry was rife with faulty caps, pc engine GT/turbo express and the turbo duo had the same problems. It wasn't sega's fault the entire electronics industry was rife with faulty parts don't be such a faggot.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)22:44 UTC+1 No.1790057 Report
File: ringedge[1].jpg-(125x93)
>yfw SEGA surprise releases...
>yfw SEGA surprise releases a consumer RING console or PC card
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)22:48 UTC+1 No.1790061 Report

>>1788690
>Why was the Sega Saturn hardware such an all-round disaster?

Sega are the masters of the art of ruining things. They have done nothing but squander fantastic developers, studios, franchises and hardware (as well as shitloads of money) via incompetence for their entire history.

They really shouldn't fuck up so much, they've had every reason to succeed, but they always do something retarded and fuck up.

I'm sure there's some sort of historical/pop cultural comparison but I can't think of any right now so instead I'm just gonna say play segagaga and get the insider story.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)22:50 UTC+1 No.1790068 Report

>>1790057
>RING console
Ya a pc with embedded windows. Also the only thing I would want is another Sengoku Taisen for i-pad or something.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)22:54 UTC+1 No.1790078 Report

>>1790061
ya for every win they had they did something twice as bad. 32x anyone?
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)22:54 UTC+1 No.1790079 Report

to be completely fair to sega I don't think anyone really expected the playstation to take off like it did.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)22:56 UTC+1 No.1790086 Report

>>1790056
>You're just a fucking idiot for trying to compare a handheld with a console.

One console to all of Sega's consoles, including their own handheld.

Also, Game Boy's capacitors never failed and old as they are, still work fine even today.

Feel free to once again trying to move the goalposts.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)22:58 UTC+1 No.1790089 Report

>>1790079
Not until that years E3. It blew sega out of the water so hard. PS won on price point and games.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)22:58 UTC+1 No.1790090 Report

>>1790086

And it looks like a fucking watch screen.

>hurr it just werks

Even my grandma old Singer sewing machine still works, but it sure as hell doesn't do the stuff modern sewing machines do.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)22:59 UTC+1 No.1790093 Report

>>1790079
Neither Nintendo and yet the former king admited Sony's hyper competence and adapted itself to the new rules that Sony brought to the console wars battlezone.

Sega refused to adapt and ended up killing itself.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)23:01 UTC+1 No.1790097 Report

>>1790086
nobody is moving the goalposts, you're the one trying to compare apples to oranges. DURRRR this cheap handheld unit sold more than all these expensive game consoles durrrr. That doesn't prove shit, it proves the gameboy was a success that is about it.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)23:04 UTC+1 No.1790105 Report

>>1790090
>And it looks like a fucking watch screen.
Which is better than the Game Gear's shitty color screen that forced you to stay indoors if you ever wanted to see anything on it.

>Even my grandma old Singer sewing machine still works, but it sure as hell doesn't do the stuff modern sewing machines do.

If your grandma's old sewing machine still works it means it's a good sewing machine. Just like the original Game Boy and just unlike the Game Gear.

While you try to move the goalposts again, I will fire up my old Game Boy Advanced to play Sonic on it.

You know, since after Sega's utter failure, the Edgyhog ended up becoming Nintendo's bitch.

And then it became everyone's bitch.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)23:04 UTC+1 No.1790107 Report

Does anyone know where I can find the colour palette for the saturn?

I wanna replicate it for a game I'm making but I'm not having the best of luck researching it.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)23:06 UTC+1 No.1790110 Report

>>1790097
If it was cheap it means it should have been crappier as well.

And yet it massacred them all in the same way as Sony massacred them for good.

So, your point?
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)23:09 UTC+1 No.1790114 Report
File: virtuastick.jpg-(125x93)
best arcade stick ever made
best arcade stick ever made
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)23:10 UTC+1 No.1790117 Report

>>1790114
Yes.
Yes it was.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)23:14 UTC+1 No.1790132 Report

>>1790105
okay would you just fuck off to /v/ your underage is showing.
>>1790110
cheap doesn't mean crappy. It was more affordable because it used older technology the game gear was cutting edge and the technology in it was new and expensive. You're not even trying to make a point you're just shitting on sega because you're a huge faggot. I'm not arguing segas success, I was merely stating you can't compare handhelds to consoles it's a different demographic. You're only here to shitpost so would you please kindly head on back to /v/ I don't care if sega is a failure or not you're just a moron.

AND THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE, CAUSE STONE COLD SAID SO
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)23:14 UTC+1 No.1790134 Report

The bipolar rationales here are hilarious.

>This console didn't sell many as many units. It sucks!

>This game sold very few units. It's rare and extremely special!
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)23:16 UTC+1 No.1790139 Report

Hearing an emulation developer talk about how much of a nightmare emulating Saturn would be is mind-blowing. It's like Escher was an engineer working at Sega.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)23:17 UTC+1 No.1790143 Report

>>1790134
That's just nintendo fans in general
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)23:22 UTC+1 No.1790158 Report
File: oh-he-mad.jpg-(125x93)
>>1790132
>>1790132
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)23:23 UTC+1 No.1790160 Report

>>1790158
yeah it is a little frustrating dealing with illiterate children.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)23:27 UTC+1 No.1790172 Report

>>1790143
Take your console war faggotry back to /v/ you underaged douche nozzle.

>>1790134
Different people have different opinions?
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)23:37 UTC+1 No.1790208 Report

>>1788705
while the "Rare" box was a nice machine, that's a stupid claim to make.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)23:39 UTC+1 No.1790213 Report

>>1790172
It's the truth though somehow anything sega made is crap if it didn't sell well where as earthbound is so le epic and le best game evar.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)23:43 UTC+1 No.1790224 Report

Saturn was my second console (First was Mega-drive) This and Mech-Warrior 2 were the games i was raised on. Had no one to talk about them with though cuz i owned a fucking Saturn
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)23:58 UTC+1 No.1790265 Report

>>1790208
The western saturn sucks.
>>
Anonymous 07/21/14(Mon)23:59 UTC+1 No.1790271 Report

>>1788834
>SoTN
>masterpiece
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)00:04 UTC+1 No.1790284 Report

>>1790078
>ya for every win they had they did something twice as bad. 32x anyone?

As far as business practice goes: every win they had was done by SOA, every fail they did was by SOJ.

The only time Sega was successful was when they told Kalinske that he can do whatever the fuck he wants as long as he does alright. Then he did so good that they didn't let him do anything out of jealousy.

The 32x? Forced on Kalinske by SoJ.

The Dreamcast selling for 200$? The only time Bernie Stolar said "no" to SoJ. He got fired for it, yet it was one of the things that pushed the Dreamcast USA launch to be record-breaking.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)00:06 UTC+1 No.1790286 Report
File: HSS-0136.jpg-(125x93)
>>1790114Not, it was a...
>>1790114
Not, it was a piece of shit that used rubber membranes.

Best arcade pads were these and their Astro City variants (which were LITERALLY the same pads as in Sega arcade cabinets!).
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)00:37 UTC+1 No.1790350 Report

>>1790284
>record-breaking
The only record they broke was selling the most fucking broken consoles and games of any launching console ever.

I swear, anything Sega console related is all rose tinted glasses from /vr/
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)00:44 UTC+1 No.1790380 Report

>>1790350
actually that would be the xbox 360 nice try though faggot
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)01:01 UTC+1 No.1790451 Report

>>1790350
>they liek something i don't! OMG ROSE TINTED NOSTALGIAFAG

You are a shitposter and are trash. Return to the /v/ from whence you came and do not darken our door again.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)01:40 UTC+1 No.1790614 Report

>>1790350
>The only record they broke was selling the most fucking broken consoles and games of any launching console ever.

They broke both the current pre-order records and the 24h console sales record. This is public information, hell, you can even google the numbers if you want.

>I swear, anything Sega console related is all rose tinted glasses from /vr/

And you sound like one of those guys who go into every Sega thread saying how crap their machines were and how there should be a /sega/ board so any Sega discussion could be banned from the rest of 4chan.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)02:40 UTC+1 No.1790796 Report

>>1789609
Saturn has worse fill-rate than the Playstation because the system bandwidth was lower. This is really only meaningful for 3D. As for 2D, VDP2 gives the Saturn an advantage because it can do all sorts of magic with backgrounds without the CPU getting involved, unlike on Playstation.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)03:04 UTC+1 No.1790890 Report
File: 1376822481411.jpg-(125x115)
>>1790350/>Sega>rose...
>>1790350/
>Sega
>rose tinted glasses

Please fine anon, regale us with a tale of how Golden Eye was the pinnacle of gaming
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)03:05 UTC+1 No.1790892 Report

>>1789983
>Handhelds are always going to sell more

>PlayStation Vita: 8.85 million (only better than Dreamcast, Wii U, Xbox One, Atari 7800, and the other handhelds below)
>WonderSwan: 3.5 million
>N-Gage: 3 million
>Game Boy Micro: 2.4 million
>Neo Geo Pocket: 2 million
>Sega Nomad: 1 million
>Game.com: 0.3 million

Don't think so mate.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)03:07 UTC+1 No.1790897 Report

>>1790890
>Please fine anon, regale us with a tale of how Golden Eye was the pinnacle of gaming
Segafag here. I actually really like Goldeneye because it's by the developers own admission Virtua Cop turned into an FPS.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)03:11 UTC+1 No.1790912 Report

>>1790892
I think what the console warring moron earlier in this thread failed to realize is that comparing sales between consoles is only fair if you take into account the price (relative to inflation).

If you sell 10 expensive consoles and make a profit of $100 you aren't worse off than somebody who sells 100 cheap consoles and make a profit of $100.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)03:24 UTC+1 No.1790951 Report

>>1788913
>SotN is almost entirely 3D
You must be thinking of a different game anon.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)03:33 UTC+1 No.1790984 Report

>>1790912
Companies don't release their profit margin per console as a general rule. However, if you compare prices at launch and adjust for inflation, you'll see that success is not solely determined by price.

Mattel Intellivision ($935) - 2nd
Atari 2600 ($796) - 1st
ColecoVision ($410) - 3rd

NES ($412) - 1st
Sega Master System ($412) - 2nd

Neo Geo ($1125) - 4th
TurboGrafx 16 ($365) - 3rd
Sega Genesis ($346) - 2nd
SNES ($332) - 1st

3DO ($1095) - 4th
Sega Saturn ($595) - 3rd
PlayStation ($446) - 1st
Atari Jaguar ($389) - 5th
Nintendo 64 ($289) - 2nd

PlayStation 2 ($395) - 1st
Xbox ($389) - 2nd
Sega Dreamcast ($272) - 4th
Nintendo GameCube ($259) - 3rd

PlayStation 3 ($567) - virtually equal 2nd
Xbox 360 ($348) - virtually equal 2nd
Wii ($284) - 1st

In any case, your argument is wrong. Many companies, like Sony & Microsoft now, sell their consoles at a loss and get the profit from game sales, not console sales. And generally you're better off selling more consoles anyway since it means games have a larger audience to sell to.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)04:17 UTC+1 No.1791082 Report

>>1790984

Now I'd like to see a comparison for the PS1/PS3/PS4/Saturn/Neo Geo/Atari 2600/Mattel Intellivision adjusted for each generation for comparison.

This is really fascinating.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)04:24 UTC+1 No.1791101 Report

>>1790984
God. Reminds me to be super appreciative of my parents. That shit was expensive.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)04:39 UTC+1 No.1791149 Report

>>1790114
Hell no. As a huge Saturn fanboy the Virtua stick is awful. Not exaggerating either. It is fucking horrid. The only people who think the Virtua stick is good are the people who's only experience with arcade sticks came from even worse Genesis and SNES era sticks.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)05:06 UTC+1 No.1791249 Report

>>1790105
how's middle school?
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)05:08 UTC+1 No.1791260 Report

>>1790213
topkek
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)05:11 UTC+1 No.1791268 Report
File: 1405301560337.jpg-(125x91)
>>1790350pic related
>>1790350
pic related
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)05:12 UTC+1 No.1791271 Report
File: underposter.jpg-(125x107)
I'm just gonna leave this...
I'm just gonna leave this here.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)05:18 UTC+1 No.1791289 Report

>>1791271
you realize like 25 year olds are the dickheads racking up points in that
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)05:22 UTC+1 No.1791304 Report
File: discreaderror.jpg-(125x93)
>>1790350Eh? Never heard...
>>1790350
Eh? Never heard of a dead Saturn that wasn't killed by dropping it, but IMAGE FUCKING RELATED.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)05:24 UTC+1 No.1791314 Report

>>1791289
>>1791271
As a 25 year old, I only qualify for:

-Supposes that because the SNES sold more than the Gen/MD overall worldwide, it did so uniformly everywhere
-Game X is now unplayable due to graphics/controls/difficulty (mainly controls)
-Doesn't know anything at all about the TurboGrafx-16
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)05:30 UTC+1 No.1791332 Report

>>1789947
try comparing apples to apples, dipshit. the Gameboy practically existed in a vacuum. there was absolutely NO competition, apart from the poorly made Game Gear. By the time other players jumped in to the ring, (Atari, Wonderswan, NGPocket, Tiger) the term "gameboy" was a synonym for handheld gaming, and Pokemon had been unleashed.

Long head start and unbeatable library are the reasons for the NES and the Gameboy's dominance
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)06:13 UTC+1 No.1791447 Report

>>1791332
>unbeatable library
So they dominated because they were the best? That's really insightful anon.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)06:34 UTC+1 No.1791508 Report

>sega fanboys
Manchild fucking shits. You 80s kids are everywhere. Crawling all over the internet, crying about Voltron. You're like ants to me.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)06:35 UTC+1 No.1791513 Report

>>1791271
I concede to not knowing much at all about the TG-16 and to getting stuck on the barrel in sonic 3. In my defense, the barrel was not designed well and it only got worse with their placement of the first one you encountered.

>>1790350
As one who has only really started to appreciate Sega consoles very recently, I think that you're completely wrong. My brother let me play Sonic on his genesis back in the day, but only in the last few years have I played the actual glut of the Genesis library, and only recently have I purchased a Dreamcast and a Saturn. Both systems have some great games on them, like VF2 and Shenmue, that I'd not played at all until this year. Plus there's the Genesis, which has great stuff like Comix Zone and Streets of Rage 2, both of which I had never played until a few years ago. To say that Sega has no positive traits to its consoles or that their stuff is purely nostalgia-based is a sign of pure ignorance.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)06:36 UTC+1 No.1791518 Report

>>1791332
>Long head start and unbeatable library are the reasons for the NES and the Gameboy's dominance

Are you saying that the Game Boy won because they had the best shit ever?

How is that supposed to downplay the Game Boy's supreme assrape to the Game Gear, Atari Lynx, Bandai's Wonderswan and Neo-Geo's NeoGeoPocket?

The only portable console who gave a good (and painful) hit to Nintendo in the portable market was Sony's PSP and that was over once the Vita popped out and Sony's customers basically said "fuck you" to it.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)06:40 UTC+1 No.1791532 Report

>>1791513
>To say that Sega has no positive traits to its consoles or that their stuff is purely nostalgia-based is a sign of pure ignorance.
If you read this thread you will notice that lots of people have said that Sega's utter failure was caused by poor marketing because yes, Sega had awesome shit to offer but never learned how to correctly offer and market it.

In fact, most of Sega's marketing campaign was a broken record playing "we are radical, Nintendo is for wankers!" over and over again. And it worked, until Sony stepped in and violated Sega's brown cherry until in became a gushing geyser of blood and feces.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)06:43 UTC+1 No.1791546 Report

>>1791532
>Sega had awesome shit to offer but never learned how to correctly offer and market it.

I think it would be more accurate to say that Sega DID know how to market their products. But Sony did it the exact same way, only better.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)06:44 UTC+1 No.1791551 Report

>>1791532
I wouldn't disagree with any of those statements. Admittedly, I spoke without reading the entirety of the thread, and thus probably came out looking out of place. I only read the post I responded to, in which (to my understanding) he saw no positive traits to Sega which weren't nostalgia-fueled. I apologize for posting recklessly, regardless of the validity of the content of my post.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)07:05 UTC+1 No.1791608 Report

>>1791546
>I think it would be more accurate to say that Sega DID know how to market their products.
Actually, no, Sega didn't.

Just take a look at how many different versions of the same console they tried to market and sell at once, expecting that it's customers would want to buy the same shit in different shape over and over again.

Look at the abandoned 32X, the rushed Saturn, the always neglected sega CD (which was the tits) and especially, look at all the shitty games drowning the great ones.

Meanwhile, Nintendo's one and only epic screwup was the Virtual Boy (basically a fucking BETA rushed to kingdon come) and the company still learned a good lesson from that massive mistake.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)07:36 UTC+1 No.1791670 Report

>>1791608
>Look at the abandoned 32X, the rushed Saturn, the always neglected sega CD (which was the tits) and especially, look at all the shitty games drowning the great ones.
That has little to do with the actual marketing and more to do with Sega's western divisions being forced to market unmarketable products forced on them by Sega of Japan.

I'm not sure how old you are, but in the early days of the 16bit console wars, Nintendo was losing the PR battle big time. The SNES did not sell well in the west until the release of Donkey Kong Country because people thought it was uncool, that the games didn't look as good, weren't as fast and the game library wasn't as comprehensive.

Sega really knew how to sell the Genesis/Mega Drive because it was a good product. They didn't know how to sell the Sega CD (they made a bad call on FMV games being appealing). The Sega 32X was an unsellable product, and the Sega Saturn was an inferior hardware product to the Playstation.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)07:50 UTC+1 No.1791721 Report

>>1791608
>Actually, no, Sega didn't.

Tom Kalinske did, until SoJ slowly turned his job into "sit in your office and do nothing". Back in 91-93, in North America, Nintendo had virtual monopoly on the gaming market, yet Sega managed to push to 60% market share from single digits. If this isn't knowing exactly what to do, then I don't know what is.

SoJ had one good marketing run ever, with Segata Sanshiro. That was the ONLY time they ever beat Nintendo sales in Japan, even if for only a year and a half, when Nintendo was at their lowest with the N64 (they were also equalling or beating the Playstation at the time). But again that was for 1-2 years in Japan only, Sony was selling 10x as many units elsewhere and had the Playstation on the market from 95 to 2001, so obviously they sold way more.

>>1790796
>Saturn has worse fill-rate than the Playstation because the system bandwidth was lower. This is really only meaningful for 3D. As for 2D, VDP2 gives the Saturn an advantage because it can do all sorts of magic with backgrounds without the CPU getting involved, unlike on Playstation.

VDP1+2 interaction could give the Saturn some extra effects the Playstation would be hard pushed to do, plus the VDP2 could more than make up for the VDP1 fillrate deficiency since it was essentially drawing 5 screens worth of polygons (with transparency) for free. And one of those were the "infinite plane" type of effect which ALONE was something the Playstation couldn't do at all.

I mean we are talking about shit like drawing 4096x4096 perspective correct mosaic plane that stretches infinitely irregardless of draw distance.

But yeah, you had to tailor your games exactly if you wanted to do that. No surprise that the best looking Saturn games almost all did so (no Playstation can do water effects as good as Panzer Dragoon Zwei did).
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)07:55 UTC+1 No.1791738 Report

>>1791721
>plus the VDP2 could more than make up for the VDP1 fillrate deficiency
You are right about VDP2 being very useful, but it can't make up for the deficiency in 3D games. All bandwidth taken into account, the Playstation just has more of it. The only reason the Playstation isn't also better at 2D than the Saturn is that it has to do everything 2D the long way (funneling through the CPU) , while Saturn can do 2D the short way (directly).
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)08:04 UTC+1 No.1791771 Report

>>1791738
>it can't make up for the deficiency in 3D games.

It can if the game is built entirely around the way. No Playstation game could do the infinite plane effect (which was also perspective correct!), the few Saturn games that used it and were ported to Playstation had it changed into a finite, ugly, and shorter draw distance polygon plane. This is without counting the wave effects that could be put on them (like the water in PD Zwei and Saga or even Grandia).

And to my knowledge no Playstation game did transparent fogging to a background either, Sonic R style. But there may have been some that actually did it - feel free to name some, the PS library was huge, so something must've did so. Most games I remember just faded the polygons to whiter and whiter the farther they were.

>The only reason the Playstation isn't also better at 2D than the Saturn is that it has to do everything 2D the long way (funneling through the CPU) , while Saturn can do 2D the short way (directly).

Well technically it has to manipulate the framebuffer to do oldschool 2d effects, which is a pain and takes up extra video memory and is still limited. The Saturn could do it in hardware.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)08:14 UTC+1 No.1791798 Report

>>1791771
Playstation could do everything the Saturn could do (and more) but it would have to be done in software mode. And obvious if the Playstation has to do something in software and the Saturn can do it in hardware, the Saturn is faster at it.

Problem is that the Saturn is way less flexible when it comes to doing things outside of its comfort area. The lack of bandwidth means it can't brute force things in the same way as the Playstation can. Also the pixel overdraw bug really affects its ability to do transparencies well (yes some games did have transparencies, but there are Playstation games that stack transparencies on top of transparencies - the overdraw on the Saturn makes something like that logistically impossible, it would eat the fill rate like no tomorrow)
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)08:17 UTC+1 No.1791807 Report

>>1791271
got me on resellers
resellers are fucking scummy jews though
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)08:52 UTC+1 No.1791891 Report

>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)09:17 UTC+1 No.1791959 Report

So which was the most powerful 5th gen console?

Saturn sounds like the most powerful but was held back due to it being the most difficult to devolop for

The Shenmue demo for Saturn is mighty impressive, though i heard it wasn't a retail Saturn
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)09:20 UTC+1 No.1791968 Report

>>1791959
the only difference between the devkits and a stock saturn is more ram, capcom is the one who pushed the ram cart cause they liked how their games ran on the devkit
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)09:26 UTC+1 No.1791990 Report

>>1791959
Depends what you mean by power. Like the Nintendo 64 head designer said after the dust had settled, using the metaphor of a car, the 64 had a much much faster top speed than any other console of that gen, but it could only reach top speed in bursts, and its cruising speed wasn't that good.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)09:47 UTC+1 No.1792023 Report

>>1790057
RingEdge is outdated already.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)10:33 UTC+1 No.1792086 Report

>>1791959
Even though Saturn was a pain to develop for, its power shone through on some of the best-made titles.

N64 was right behind because it was a beast but a fairly restrained one.

PS1 was least powerful but not by much plus it was easy to take advantage of its full potential, so you had a lot of really good stuff for it.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)10:44 UTC+1 No.1792098 Report

>>1792086
If you think the Saturn was more powerful than the N64 at anything you are delusional. The N64's CPU alone was three times faster than each of the Saturn's CPUs.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)11:22 UTC+1 No.1792146 Report

>>1788891
SOTN is incredibly easy. This is a well known fact. It's common for people to not think something is that great when it's very easy to complete. I don't think that's autism, I think that's having a standard.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)11:34 UTC+1 No.1792164 Report

>>1792098
The 64 bottlenecked itself hard though by not having any dedicated VRAM and doing it all on the main RAM. Plus it used RDRAM which was new at the time and was high latency. So everything had to go through the same high latency bottleneck. To be able to reach the 64's full potential you had to really know what you're doing, which no-one outside of Nintendo did, since Nintendo never released the full system documentation until a couple of years before the 64 was discontinued. Without custom microcode, which you needed documentation to even know existed, devs were stuck using Nintendo's default microcode which was optimised for accuracy, not speed, and wasn't even used by Nintendo most of the time anyway.

Out of that generation, only the PlayStation & 3DO were easy to program for, and the 3DO was DOA anyway thanks to a launch price of 700 FUCKING DOLLARS. It's no wonder third-parties flocked to the PlayStation. The Saturn, 64 & Jaguar were all shitty to code for to varying degrees.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)12:14 UTC+1 No.1792247 Report

>>1792164
>The 64 bottlenecked itself hard though by not having any dedicated VRAM and doing it all on the main RAM. Plus it used RDRAM which was new at the time and was high latency. So everything had to go through the same high latency bottleneck.
Yeah but you're forgetting that the RAM also had insane bandwidth. We're talking 3x the bandwidth of the PS1 (and the PS1 had more bandwidth than the Saturn).

I can tell you the biggest system flaw, and you're almost on the money. The N64 cannot page textures out of anywhere but the texture cache (4KB). The PS1 can page textures out of both the texture cache (2KB) and the VRAM (1MB minus 2KB).
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)12:37 UTC+1 No.1792272 Report

>>1791798
>Playstation could do everything the Saturn could do (and more) but it would have to be done in software mode.

Well you can do everything in software (I've seen the C64 do bump mapping), but there is a question of doing it so it remains viable in-game.

Displaying a 4096x4096px infinitely repeating perspective correct x/y/z rotated square field was easy for the Saturn but the Playstation would've had less than 1 fps trying to plot something like that (even if you omit the perspective correction and break it up to smaller triangles).

Like I said, vdp1+2 interactino allowed the Saturn to do things the Playstation couldn't do. At reasonable speeds.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)12:44 UTC+1 No.1792280 Report

>>1792272
>Displaying a 4096x4096px infinitely repeating perspective correct x/y/z rotated square field
Fill-rate overload
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)15:49 UTC+1 No.1792576 Report

>>1791518
Wonderswan was axed because Gunpei died. If it was not for that, I think we would have seen Wonderswan 2 or whatever at some point.
And more sales.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)17:34 UTC+1 No.1792783 Report

>>1788690
but anon, it looks cooler than the ps1
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)20:48 UTC+1 No.1793359 Report

>>1789827
Word on the street is Treasure were going to do it, but Sony didn't allow it because they thought a sub-par version of RSG on their console would give them a bad image and help the competition, the Saturn.
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)21:54 UTC+1 No.1793509 Report

>>1792164
>>1792247
>>1792272

This is all incredibly fascinating to me. Where would I go to learn more about this sort of thing?
>>
Anonymous 07/22/14(Tue)22:22 UTC+1 No.1793580 Report

>>1793509
Learn about cpu and gpu design, possible ways to create a graphics plotter (tile based, sprite based, framebuffer based, polygon based, etc), and read the shit out of the official hardware documents.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)06:04 UTC+1 No.1795141 Report

>>1790286
what's that stick called and where can I cop one?
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)08:07 UTC+1 No.1795498 Report

It seems like that every console architecture based on twin CPU sharing the same bus architecture are always doomed from the start.

Too complicate to program and too much bottlenecks in the design.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)13:55 UTC+1 No.1795876 Report

>>1795141
Just look for HSS-0136 if you want the 1-player stick or HSS-0130 if you want the really expensive 2 player stick.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)14:46 UTC+1 No.1795965 Report

saturn was designed with high-quality 2D in mind, and didn't foresee everyone jumping on the 3D bandwagon. So at the last minute that had to change stuff around so it could support 3D, and they did this by literally including 2 processors. Not cores, 2 entirely separate duplicate processors. That's why it's so hard to program for.

Also it uses quadrilaterals instead of triangle polygons for 3D rendering, no fucking clue why.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)15:58 UTC+1 No.1796080 Report
File: url.jpg-(125x93)
Not having pic related so your...
Not having pic related so your Saturn can tell you your GPS coordinates.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)16:03 UTC+1 No.1796087 Report

Because it was meant to render 2D graphics primarly.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)16:16 UTC+1 No.1796119 Report
File: hisatopen.jpg-(120x125)
>>1796080>not having...
>>1796080
>not having the LCD screen included for Saturn awesomeness while driving
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)17:04 UTC+1 No.1796221 Report

>>1795965
Sprites (unless quadrilaterals are the same thing under another name), and the reason why Sega used them is because they only have to be rendered every second rather then every frame, the problem comes in building 3D models as at the time they were harder to make 3D models when with polygons building 3D models is much easier.

It will take up to the DS (it's A-GPU's (B-GPU is just a updated GBA PPU with a higher rez & a higher color pallet) sprite count is around that of the GameCube's polygons per frame count) to have sprites be used in 3D models again, and the DS' sprite hardware (for it's A-GPU) is more powerful then the Saturn's sprite hardware (other then having less sprites then the Saturn at 348,000 compared to the Saturn's 500,000).
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)18:08 UTC+1 No.1796398 Report

>>1795876
I found literally only one on ebay for 100 bucks. That'll be a purchase for another time haha.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)19:12 UTC+1 No.1796568 Report

>>1795965
Nothing at the time was drawing real 3d other than extremely high end hardware. 3do, Playstation, Saturn, most if not all PC games, all of them were plotting strictly 2d polygons, affine mapped in software. The thing that made the Saturn bad at it was that it couldn't draw triangles, only quads, plus it had a low fillrate and had to do affine mapping in software.

There is no indication that they changed anything other than the NEC V60 to 2x SH2, and bolting on an extra megabyte of RAM. It is possible that the VDP1 was originally incapable of drawing distorted sprites - but we have no real info on that (the NEC V60 was mentioned multiple times over several sources).

>Also it uses quadrilaterals instead of triangle polygons for 3D rendering, no fucking clue why.

Because it was designed with high-quality 2d in mind, like you just said so.

>>1796221
>reason why Sega used (sprites) is because they only have to be rendered every second rather then every frame

I'm pretty sure they have to be rendered every frame unless your aim is to be capable of running Myst.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)21:03 UTC+1 No.1796859 Report

>Add ram card
>hurrr much better at 2D
The Playstation is only worse because people keep comparing capcom fighters when the Playstation only had 2MB to work with versus the expanded memory of the saturn. And whoever still believes the playstation is LITERALLY incapable of displaying 2D is nothing short of a complete dipshit
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)21:40 UTC+1 No.1796969 Report

>>1796859
Well, it's not just the expanded RAM games that ran better on the Saturn, but also some that did not use expanded RAM at all like Sexy Parodius, X-Men Children of the Atom and Darius Gaiden. Donpachi/Dodonpachi are notably better on Playstation though.

While Saturn SotN is a notorious example of an inferior 2D port, there are also quite a few Saturn>Playstation ports which turned out slightly worse, like Silhouette Mirage, Soukyugurentai and Grandia. Almost every time they would include a few extras in the Playstation ports though, or an English release.
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)21:40 UTC+1 No.1796972 Report

>>1796859
Okay, let's compare apples to apples. Street Fighter Alpha 1 & 2, Darkstalkers and Marvel Superheroes. Why are the Playstation ports missing more frames?
>>
Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)21:41 UTC+1 No.1796973 Report

>>1796859
>The Playstation is only worse because people keep comparing capcom fighters when the Playstation only had 2MB to work with versus the expanded memory of the saturn.

There were plenty of 2d games that looked worse on the Playstation and didn't need any memory expansion on the Saturn. Darius Gaiden, Silhouette Mirage, Thunder Force V. Hell X-Men COTA had the intro sequence as an FMV because they couldn't handle it otherwise and the game was ported to Playstation in 1998.

Playstation can draw 2d sprites just fine. But it can't draw BACKGROUNDS. It can only draw them as bigass 512x512 textured polygons. That shit eats a lot of VRAM away from the sprites, and then you have the additional problems of doing crap like linescroll/column scroll, etc. with them (which, depending on the effect, might be difficult or outright impossible).

Saturn had a dedicated hardware chip for drawing tiled backgrounds, which saved up a ludicrous amount of fillrate and memory. Plus it worked the exact same way all 2d hardware did up to the time, so a ton of hit 2d games could be ported straight away.
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Anonymous 07/23/14(Wed)21:49 UTC+1 No.1796995 Report

>>1796972
>Marvel Superheroes

Marvel Super Heroes was dog shit on the Saturn though. It ran at like half the speed of the original, one fourth if you enable 3M RAM mode.

Also, X-Men COTA was one of the few Saturn games that only used a single SH2.

>>1796969
>Donpachi/Dodonpachi are notably better on Playstation though.

What was the difference between the PS and Saturn versions? I keep hearing that it is one of the notable 2d games where the Playstation version is better, but what exactly was better in it? I remember someone mentioning audio and the tate support being screwed, but I really don't know.
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Anonymous 07/24/14(Thu)01:56 UTC+1 No.1797725 Report

the tech wizards at sega16 (who have no love for sony) calculated that in practical terms if the ps1 had as much ram as the saturn it would only be slightly worse at 2D
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Anonymous 07/24/14(Thu)02:20 UTC+1 No.1797809 Report

>>1797725
>the tech wizards at sega16 (who have no love for sony) calculated that in practical terms if the ps1 had as much ram as the saturn it would only be slightly worse at 2D

If the Playstation had as much RAM as the Saturn, it would have slightly less animations and way less background effects but it could push 3-4x more sprites without slowdown (provided the game engine is effective enough to handle that much calculations - collissions and such).
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Anonymous 07/24/14(Thu)03:12 UTC+1 No.1797996 Report

>>1796995
In the case of Dodonpachi, the Playstation version looks notably crisper in all aspects, especially in Yoko mode.(which in the Saturn version is very pixellated which makes it harder to dodge bullets)

Tate mode on Saturn looks better, but it's still not quite as good. One thing the Saturn version does have going for it is how, if you are playing with 2 players, you can both pick different ships while in the Playstation version you would have to pick the same one. There is also an extra level included.

Anyway, your average shoot-em-up guy would say they both suck and you are better of playing on MAME. I think they are decent enough ports though, but not worth shelling out over $50 on.
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Anonymous 07/24/14(Thu)06:55 UTC+1 No.1798765 Report

>>1796221
dem nested parentheses...
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Anonymous 07/24/14(Thu)06:58 UTC+1 No.1798770 Report

>>1788773
At least it HAD built-in memory.
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Anonymous 07/24/14(Thu)07:47 UTC+1 No.1798917 Report

>>1788690
This saturn looks better than the all black one I had. The truth is that Sega was all around a disaster. They released consoles too fast and didn't market properly in the US. It's pretty much their fault they failed. I don't know much about the hardware but it appeared to be inferior than the PS1 for sure. My favorite Saturn game was Guardian Heroes.

It's a shame because they had the talent but I have heard way too much stories on much of their failure being sheer incompetence and dare I say it, xenophobia.
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Anonymous 07/24/14(Thu)08:15 UTC+1 No.1798981 Report

>>1788850
Yeah, nevermind that the $50 Saturn backup cartridge held like 500x as much data as a $25 Playstation memory card. I'm exaggerating obviously, but I've got 100+ Saturn games and I've never come close to hitting capacity. This is such a bullshit thing to try and complain about.
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Anonymous 07/24/14(Thu)13:04 UTC+1 No.1799412 Report

>>1788690

saturn was meant to be the ultimate 2D system.

They were shocked when they heard about the PS1. Then they quickly redesigned it to be a 3D system. So it's a monstrosity. They should have either not released it or redid it by scratch.
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